spiers on murray

[craig 5,199]

It wasn't someone, it was me. And here's why. Over the last nine months or so I've built and recently moved into a new office and factory facility. I'm in the process of converting the development overdraft facilty to a term loan and I have three banks not only willing to provide a range of financing options but actually competing for the business. Two of them have have been prepared to negotiate down their banking margins and arrangement fees. Credit certainly IS available and apparently in some abundance. During the last six months I have also bought and financed three large CNC machines without the slightest problem.

 

Today I heard that the government is supposedly considering "forcing" banks to lend money. What a crock. The thought that governments will exercise better judgement than banks is ridiculous.

 

In the real world, outside of the media political circus, I've seen no great shortage of credit. What there might well be is an increasing scarcity of credit for companies and individuals that present undue or unacceptable risk and I can't say I find that a bad thing. Perhaps those are the people the government wants the banks to go back to lending to?

 

Conspiracy? I've no idea. What I can tell you is my own recent experience and I'm no speculator. Of course why let facts get in the way of a much needed political excuse.

 

Sorry maineflyer but your experience is not necessarily the norm though. Good for you that this is the case but on this side of the pond (and I admit it may be different in the UK than it is in the US - but the UK usually takes a bit of time to catch up with the US) that is certainly NOT the case.

 

In fact, companies like Goldman Sachs (huge investment bankers who previously would provide as much credit as someone would take - leveraging something like 15 times) have as much stated that as of beginning of November they were "closed till Christmas".

 

We have been looking for liquidity facilities and there are very few companies prepared to provide it, even high street banks.

 

Of course it could also depend on the amount you are looking for - we were/are looking for a revolving $250 million facility.

 

But to say that it is easy to obtain finance is not quite the full picture - each circumstance is different - but obviously I am glad you had no problem and, in fact, were getting banks cutting each other's throats to get it.

[maineflyer 0]

Sorry maineflyer but your experience is not necessarily the norm though. Good for you that this is the case but on this side of the pond (and I admit it may be different in the UK than it is in the US - but the UK usually takes a bit of time to catch up with the US) that is certainly NOT the case.

 

In fact, companies like Goldman Sachs (huge investment bankers who previously would provide as much credit as someone would take - leveraging something like 15 times) have as much stated that as of beginning of November they were "closed till Christmas".

 

We have been looking for liquidity facilities and there are very few companies prepared to provide it, even high street banks.

 

Of course it could also depend on the amount you are looking for - we were/are looking for a revolving $250 million facility.

 

But to say that it is easy to obtain finance is not quite the full picture - each circumstance is different - but obviously I am glad you had no problem and, in fact, were getting banks cutting each other's throats to get it.

 

 

I'm not sure what the norm is but what I can say is this has been the reality for me.

 

I have a subsidiary in the US but on a very small scale with everything effectively resourced from the UK, so I've no particular experience of the current US banking situation and it is largely irrelevant to my business. However, everything I said above is 100% correct and it's hard to conclude other than there is plenty of credit available if you can provide collateral and a decent cashflow.

 

I have to say I expected the worst when I first became aware of the deteriorating situation but it's been a revealing experience these last few weeks. I'm only talking about a little over two of million pounds so perhaps that does make some difference. What has been a surprise is seeing rates negotiated fairly easily from 2.35% down to 1.85% above LIBOR, which is a considerable movement.

 

Of course you know I've had my tongue in my cheek to an extent and I'm not unaware of the difficulties being experienced. I said what I did some time ago mainly as a counter to the emerging wisdom that you couldn't borrow enough to buy a lollipop. That's plainly not true. Maybe Goldman Sachs are just like a lot of other banks, protecting their balance sheets until year end, only more so.

[craig 5,199]

I'm not sure what the norm is but what I can say is this has been the reality for me.

 

I have a subsidiary in the US but on a very small scale with everything effectively resourced from the UK, so I've no particular experience of the current US banking situation and it is largely irrelevant to my business. However, everything I said above is 100% correct and it's hard to conclude other than there is plenty of credit available if you can provide collateral and a decent cashflow.

 

I have to say I expected the worst when I first became aware of the deteriorating situation but it's been a revealing experience these last few weeks. I'm only talking about a little over two of million pounds so perhaps that does make some difference. What has been a surprise is seeing rates negotiated fairly easily from 2.35% down to 1.85% above LIBOR, which is a considerable movement.

 

Of course you know I've had my tongue in my cheek to an extent and I'm not unaware of the difficulties being experienced. I said what I did some time ago mainly as a counter to the emerging wisdom that you couldn't borrow enough to buy a lollipop. That's plainly not true. Maybe Goldman Sachs are just like a lot of other banks, protecting their balance sheets until year end, only more so.

 

 

I dont doubt you at all MF. Not one bit, you have no reason to embellish the truth. My point merely was that what is the reality for you is not necessarily the reality in the market place.

 

You hit the nail on the head I think. If you have the collateral and, probably more importantly right now, the cashflow then you will find credit - certainly at your levels. At the level we are looking at ($250 million) the credit markets really ARE drying up. Whereas in the past that would be obatined from one bank or investment bank they are now looking at syndicating those sums. But at your value the credit is available.

 

The project SDM had in mind for Rangers, Ibrox and the surrounding area would reaquire much more significant levels of funding and, from my experience recently, the markets are contracting away from the huge sums of funding. Each time that they are offering credit it is having an impact on their own credit and capital too (not forgetting banks have a requirement to maintain certain capital limits).

 

You are of course right, there IS credit available but it also IS becoming much more difficult to obtain. From my own personal perspective I have been looking at getting into property investment but the mortgage markets too are an evolving issue - with down payments being offered at 10% and two weeks later not having the ability to get into anything better than 25% down payment. The market is contracting, for sure.

 

Re your statement on Goldman Sachs I think there is more to it than merely protecting balance sheets but that certainly is an element to it. The banks STILL have no idea just how much they will lose because of the sub-prime and alt-a markets and, as such, are unwilling to put more capital at risk. The banks are fearful right now of the exposure they face. When giants like Lehman Brothers and RBS either implode or need a huge government bail-out then it sends shivers down the spine of the remainder.

 

Hope all works out well with your new facility.

[calscot 0]

This kind of thinking reminds me of the type of situation where you say have a programme about the US being the most obese country in the world. Then you get one skinny person standing up and declaring - "It's not true, I'm American and I'm not obese!"

[maineflyer 0]

This kind of thinking reminds me of the type of situation where you say have a programme about the US being the most obese country in the world. Then you get one skinny person standing up and declaring - "It's not true, I'm American and I'm not obese!"

 

I think you're trying too hard.

[Bluedell 5,614]

My view is that financial institutions are a lot less interested on providing finance for deals that are more speculative in nature.

 

It's certainly interesting and reassuring to hear your experiences, MF.

[maineflyer 0]

My view is that financial institutions are a lot less interested on providing finance for deals that are more speculative in nature.

 

It's certainly interesting and reassuring to hear your experiences, MF.

 

I'm sure you're right about speculative deals, which are normally the ones that get (demand) most publicity when credit is unavailable. It's always convenient to blame the banks for the failure of a deal that perhaps wasn't so clever in the first place. I also wonder if there is a continuing interest, albeit on a fairly quiet level, in gaining market share within the UK mainstream banking sector and hence the willingness to challenge each others' offers?

 

Of more concern is maintaining income over the next couple of years with which to service the debt, however hard or easy it's been to come by. It's going to be bloody.

[Yieldshields loyal 0]

"By this, of course, the real hardcore actually mean “a Protestant Rangers”, though they cannot quite articulate it as such. The more adept among them try to find more emollient phrases for this passion for “a Protestant Rangers” but, in this quest, vagueness and vacuity become their speciality. The truth is, it is hard trying to make the old ways sound acceptable in modern Britain."

 

.....and c****c a club rich with "heritage" as they so like to call it......this isnt catholicism based?

 

The guy is a f*ckin moron, i live for the day we have someone stand up to his comments and tainted words and out him for the rattling bastard that he is:wanker:

[Yieldshields loyal 0]

In almost every paragraph he makes a statement which either contradicts what he is saying elsewhere or is just simply hyperbolic pish !

 

"intellectual and economic underclass that has attached itself to his club" - what a ridiculous statement. Intellect and, indeed, economic circumstance is nothing to do with the ills of a club.

 

A tad ironic really, considering this is the type of scum from the East end whom he strives to support and have as his followers!

 

Maybe a bit of an unhealthy thought, but do you ever think that he could secretly be a member on here?

[Super_Ally 0]

"By this, of course, the real hardcore actually mean ââ?¬Å?a Protestant Rangersââ?¬Â, though they cannot quite articulate it as such. The more adept among them try to find more emollient phrases for this passion for ââ?¬Å?a Protestant Rangersââ?¬Â but, in this quest, vagueness and vacuity become their speciality. The truth is, it is hard trying to make the old ways sound acceptable in modern Britain."

 

.....and c****c a club rich with "heritage" as they so like to call it......this isnt catholicism based?

 

The guy is a f*ckin moron, i live for the day we have someone stand up to his comments and tainted words and out him for the rattling bastard that he is:wanker:

 

No right of reply so he gets to slander us unchallaenged.

 

Hope het gets a kicking and put in intensive care. Then maybe he wont feel he is untouchable as he spouts his own persoanl bile.