Bluedell 5,614 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Again, this is said with hindsight, all an advantage we didn't have over WS. No, it's not. It was obvious to most prior to the game that we had major problems with the midfield. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 No, it's not. It was obvious to most prior to the game that we had major problems with the midfield. Totally agree Dell, Craig is confusing me with his insistence that it is hindsight. It was posted on here so often we needed a central-midfielder and was almost always the first position mentioned by most. Personally i saw it against Schalke at least i had confirmed what i already knew. There was just totally no football in that team. That was not just my idea but also my mates who was with me and he is totally unbiased. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Pete & Dell, I am not confusing anything, it is two separate issues in my mind. Let me try to clarify : Issue #1. Was our midfield poor ? Yes Issue #2. Should our squad have been good enough to beat Kaunas ? Yes. My argument is that all this "we would have beat Kaunas had we strengthened" and "we should have strengthened before Kaunas because we wouldn't have beat them by not strengthening" is where my issue lies. That most definitely IS said with hindsight. Regardless of whether we needed strengthening (it was obvious to all that we did) we STILL had a squad and team that should have taken care of Kaunas comfortably. This is my point. All of the arguments are suggesting that people knew we wouldn't beat Kaunas without strengthening. That is hindsight. I am not disagreeing that it was blatantly obvious we needed strengthening (I was saying as much back in January and February that I felt it could hurt us in the title run-in as we were not playing good football throughout the team). But I am surprised that anyone can think that we didn't have a team and squad that should be capable of beating Kaunas. And those that are saying they knew we didn't are fooling themselves I think. We definitely had both team and squad to come through that round of matches. The players let us down in that regard more than the management did. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Pete & Dell, I am not confusing anything, it is two separate issues in my mind. Let me try to clarify : Issue #1. Was our midfield poor ? Yes Issue #2. Should our squad have been good enough to beat Kaunas ? Yes. My argument is that all this "we would have beat Kaunas had we strengthened" and "we should have strengthened before Kaunas because we wouldn't have beat them by not strengthening" is where my issue lies. That most definitely IS said with hindsight. Regardless of whether we needed strengthening (it was obvious to all that we did) we STILL had a squad and team that should have taken care of Kaunas comfortably. This is my point. All of the arguments are suggesting that people knew we wouldn't beat Kaunas without strengthening. That is hindsight. I am not disagreeing that it was blatantly obvious we needed strengthening (I was saying as much back in January and February that I felt it could hurt us in the title run-in as we were not playing good football throughout the team). But I am surprised that anyone can think that we didn't have a team and squad that should be capable of beating Kaunas. And those that are saying they knew we didn't are fooling themselves I think. We definitely had both team and squad to come through that round of matches. The players let us down in that regard more than the management did. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedell 5,614 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 The players let us down in that regard more than the management did. The players didn't pick Daillly to play in the midfield and leave Hemdani sitting on the bench. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 The players didn't pick Daillly to play in the midfield and leave Hemdani sitting on the bench. I didn't say the management weren't culpable though did I ? Even with Dailly we should have had enough to overcome Kaunas. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Pete & Dell, I am not confusing anything, it is two separate issues in my mind. Let me try to clarify : Issue #1. Was our midfield poor ? Yes Issue #2. Should our squad have been good enough to beat Kaunas ? Yes. My argument is that all this "we would have beat Kaunas had we strengthened" and "we should have strengthened before Kaunas because we wouldn't have beat them by not strengthening" is where my issue lies. That most definitely IS said with hindsight. Regardless of whether we needed strengthening (it was obvious to all that we did) we STILL had a squad and team that should have taken care of Kaunas comfortably. This is my point. All of the arguments are suggesting that people knew we wouldn't beat Kaunas without strengthening. That is hindsight. I am not disagreeing that it was blatantly obvious we needed strengthening (I was saying as much back in January and February that I felt it could hurt us in the title run-in as we were not playing good football throughout the team). But I am surprised that anyone can think that we didn't have a team and squad that should be capable of beating Kaunas. And those that are saying they knew we didn't are fooling themselves I think. We definitely had both team and squad to come through that round of matches. The players let us down in that regard more than the management did. 100% agree. We knew we needed strengthening but I doubt many predicted we would go out to Kaunas. Did we really have to risk millions of pounds and panic buys to make it more likely to beat them (without guaranteeing it?) People also forget one of the biggest problems against Kaunas was not that of personnel in the squad, it was mostly due to having a weakened and tired squad after a record season which ended in anticlimax, having just come back from a short rest and short preseason. We played a team in the MIDDLE of their season. Another couple of weeks and I'm sure we would have taken them in my opinion. The 2nd qualifying round is grossly unfair due to this (giving the likes of Kaunas an advantage) and I think the SPL needs to start a few weeks earlier to make it easier for our runners up and UEFA cup qualifiers. Have a two week winter break in February instead and remove a midweek games with the other week. That lack of competitiveness and readiness could easily have affected any newcomers. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 100% agree. We knew we needed strengthening but I doubt many predicted we would go out to Kaunas. Did we really have to risk millions of pounds and panic buys to make it more likely to beat them (without guaranteeing it?) People also forget one of the biggest problems against Kaunas was not that of personnel in the squad, it was mostly due to having a weakened and tired squad after a record season which ended in anticlimax, having just come back from a short rest and short preseason. We played a team in the MIDDLE of their season. Another couple of weeks and I'm sure we would have taken them in my opinion. The 2nd qualifying round is grossly unfair due to this (giving the likes of Kaunas an advantage) and I think the SPL needs to start a few weeks earlier to make it easier for our runners up and UEFA cup qualifiers. Have a two week winter break in February instead and remove a midweek games with the other week. That lack of competitiveness and readiness could easily have affected any newcomers. Come on Cal. Tired! Give us a break they had more than 4 weeks holiday. Should a manager not take into consideration that the other team may be further with their fitness and maybe give them more respect. I don't know where all the confidence came from about beating Kaunus but it certainly wasn't shared with me. I obviously can't predict results but i am sure i stated a few times just how bad we were on the German tour and was certainly not bubbling with confidence no matter who we got. A Bloom'n German amateur team dominated us for more than half the game You can keep making excuses but in my eyes it was total mismanagement from top to bottom. A bad workmen always blames his tools. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 That bad workmen as you put it Pete.... got us two trophies after two very barren seasons and a whisker from doing an historic quadruple, including the first European final in many of our lifetimes (not yours I know..... :devil:). That same bad workmen has us sitting atop the SPL after 7 games having dropped just 2 points (which themselves shouldn't have been dropped) and at the same time playing some very decent football. A draw (which should have been a win) at Pittodrie and very comfortable wins at Parkhead and Easter Road, whilst playing some very good stuff is also very good form. If that is the sign of a bad workmen I can only wish that I was as bad. One other thing... at the time of the Kaunas debacle Mendes wasn't available and we have no idea about Bougherra or Edu. Davis was the only one who we were actively seeking that we know was available. So how do you KNOW that it was mismanagement from top to bottom ? Mendes became available through circumstances and AFTER Kaunas, Edu wasn't available because he was at the Olympics with Team USA and don't know about Bougherra. Could it just possibly be that these players weren't available when we needed to have them registered for Kaunas ? Yes, it was suspect that the signing of these players occurred right after we sold Cuellar but we don't know for sure that availability wasnt an issue too. It is certainly as plausible as the suggestion that we only bought because we got the cash from Cuellar. Playing the game for a minute..... lets say that we knew that Kaunas would prove to be very difficult and overcome us. Would you prefer that we strengthened the team with players that we didn't really want but because the players we DID want weren't available we took the next best thing ? If we had that approach then we may never have ended up with Mendes - personally I am quite glad that we waited to get Mendes (although I do say this with hindsight). I am not happy it cost us Europe this season but I AM happy with his addition and what he brings to the team. I am also much happier with the brand of football we are playing and we all know how painful it was watching Rangers last season....... 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete 2,499 Posted October 1, 2008 Share Posted October 1, 2008 Craig nearly winning the league means we lost it. The CL\UEFA run is a debate in itself was it unlucky good management or lucky bad management? This season is still too early to make any judgement although i agree the football has improved immensely. We have at least gotten a bit of hope back though. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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