reflections on we fans, over hutton

[Wija 0]

To be fair to Andy - I invited him here from another forum - I found the piece well written and the metaphors very funny. I actually agreed with a fair part of it and while it's tone was perhaps a wee bit confrontational, there's nothing wrong with a bit of emotion when writing.

 

It's not easy to go onto other forums as a newbie and post in such a style and expect to be 'accepted' by regulars. However, we have a good core of posters on here who are more than capable of debating his points and agreeing to disagree when necessary without insult. Andy can do the same and doesn't need me to defend him.

 

That's what makes this wee forum a bit more agreeable than the busier ones out there.

 

Strong opinions are healthy especially when they can be backed up with intelligent, reasoned debate. Even better when there are clear disagreements of opinion which can only be constructive for Gersnet.

 

I am sure that was Hitler's angle!!!

[bmck 117]

... i thought i'd answer these specific things as well as make a more general response about the rangers fans reaction & your opening post in the other thread.

 

 

hutton rejecting the offer meant he wanted to stay

 

you can read that into it, equally valid to say he may have been weighing up his options with 3 weeks of the window to go. all specu---gossip, sorry, and one man's view is as valuable or worthless as anothers. what i was looking for was something where alan was interviewed and just said 'i don't want to go yet.'

 

no, thats not a matter of reading things into it. when you turn down a job offer, by definition, you say you are happy to stay where you are. unless you have some sort of magic ball that tells you that they are going to come back with a higher offer. any rejection of a new contract of employment means that you would rather stay where you are than accept their terms. thats not reading into anything, its true by definition.

 

this means that the speculation that he didnt want to go has as much evidence in fact as the speculation that he was waiting for the right offer. he never got interviewed in this time, and he never came out and said anything, so the truth is that either could be the case. to hold either side as if it is undeniable fact is to mistake healthy speculation for established fact.

 

this post is going to go on quite a bit, if anyone wants to put the kettle on.

 

have ran out of milk.

 

but i dont think its obvious rangers board arent only interested in money, and i dont think its obvious that david murray cares about the fans

me neither, not sure why we're arguing about that one. reasons above

 

well, you said in the opening post that we can confidently put down to innuendo that "david murray doesn't care about the fans" and that "rangers are only interested in money, not cups". i'm saying that both these things seem plausible to me, viewed from a certain sort of perspective.

 

or rather big baddy david murray. it seems to suggest that its absolutely bewildering to you that someone might suggest david murray done more harm than these people. to me its not so bewildering - certainly not laughably so.

i woudn't go that far, but i certainly feel some of the 'murray forced him out' stuff is way ott and frankly, bordering on the monomaniacal. that's hardly a ringing endorsement of sdm, mind you. it's my opinion on people who are willing to put the boot into murray on the flimsiest of grounds.

 

ah, right. it seemed to me you were saying that people who think murray doesn't care about the fans are the same people who think he is a some victorian stage villain. i was trying to say that while some, on radio forums and the like, may think he is some sort of evil personified, most people can assess his interest in the club critically without thinking that it makes him somehow evil.

 

it could, but it's going too far to say that we have thrown away the title, and that was the point.

 

i've not heard anyone say it, certainly not as if it were fact, but i reckon there is a decent case to be made for it to have a seriously detrimental affect on our season, saved only perhaps by how shit celtic currently are. and i think the freedom to make this case is natural and right. with our system i think having two attacking fullbacks is essential, and i think that as a matter of principle we should be doing our utmost to keep excellent young scottish fullbacks as an indicator of ambition both to the fans, but also to the players. i'm not sure where that puts me in your assessment of things, but given that i believe some of the things you seem to be ridiculing, i'm bound to respond.

 

there have to be some crossed wires here, somewhere. what is this obsession with stupidity, nutjobs and so on? to me, they're wrong. and the people at whom the criticism was directed have almost without exception vented their spleen against the chairman and bain, asserting without to my eyes any hard evidence that he forced the boy out the door.

 

its that you portrayed the people criticising bain and murray as somehow nuts, and i've criticised bain and murray, therefore i'm nuts. but i'm not nuts, you see? now, as per the other post, i think it was really those who confuse reasonable speculation with established fact that you were addressing, but it seemed like anyone who held any negative beliefs about this whole saga/murray/the future of rangers/the board etc as gossips who were so stupid as to think of murray in black and white terms, as a sort of idiot or child. i still think that holds from what you've written, but it doesnt seem to be your intention (s_a's a smart reasonable guy, and he seemed to take it the same way).

 

i quite accept that he preferred that hutton leave as he viewed it in the best interests of rfc, but nevertheless if alan had wanted to stay he would still be there. i'm not sure i agree with murray 100%, but i can see where he's coming from and i don't see it as any sort of anti-rangers move, which is most certainly how it has been portrayed by those i complain about.

 

i know what you mean, but this assessment of the situation is speculation. not hard facts. when you get into an intimate knowledge of murray's preferences, and views, what you are saying is speculation. now it may be that your speculation is more reasonable than someone who think murray kidnapped hutton's wife, held her over a cliff, and threatened to remove her unborn child if he didn't sign for spurs. but i've not heard anything that extreme: i've only heard gradients of speculation that says "i could see murray doing his utmost to force him out the door" to "he preferred hutton leave, but would have let him stay if he wanted". these are both speculation, but one can be truer to the facts as we've learned them than the other. it seemed like those people who believed the former were the people under attack in your article.

 

be a bit pointless posting if i felt only people who agreed with me were allowed to answer. i do, tho, object to people inserting their own views into my opinions, that seems most unfair. also, i object massively to being told how it would be better to write...that's fucking censorship.

 

man, you have the same right to your views as everyone else here. if i think what you have written is condescending, i will say so. if i wasnt allowed to say that, it would likewise be censorship. censorship is only when you are forced to say something you don't want to say, or stopped from saying what you want, not when people don't agree with you or object to the way you said things.

 

i found your post excessively condescending towards those who didnt share your views on the whole issue (of which I, and many other more sensible people are included),

i got a lot of pleasure out of sending up the people who had wound me up big time. suppose i am massively condescending? suppose i'm the most arrogant sob who has ever walked the earth? you can always ban me.

 

i said i thought your post was un-necesarily condescending, which i do. but that doesn't mean i would ever want to ban you or censor you for it. thats all pish. i love strong opinions, and i like it when people have the confidence to argue out their point. however, if i think it, i'll say it. i tend to trust people with strong opinions dont mind strong opinions in response. but i think you have read insults that dont exist into what i've said (i said excessively - more than is necessary - condescending, not massively, and certainly never sid you were the most arrogant sob ever to walk the earth), but tone is so hard to judge. i wasn't offended at all by your post, i dont think i have ever felt the thing that people call offense, but as one of the people your post seemed to take into account, on first reading, then i've got the right of reply, like everyone else.

 

must go find milk...

[Jon 0]

Tottenham Hotspur new boy Alan Hutton has revealed that his initial move to the club from Glasgow Rangers was not delayed due to him not being sure about the club, but because he is about to become a father.

 

 

Hutton told the Daily Record: "My missus is down here right now and will go back to Scotland to have the baby. We are looking for a place to stay. In my eyes, the family comes first and that is why it was a massive decision to come to London.

"That is one of the main reasons why there was a hold-off period from me. But the offer to play here was just too big to turn down.

"The move was brilliant but the timing was not ideal on the personal side. It was things behind the scenes, like the family, that made me weigh it up for so long and

hold me back a wee bit.

"But, after this debut, I feel as if I've made the right choice.

"I spoke to big Lee McCulloch about playing in England. He'd done it with Wigan and assured me I would be fine. The other side to it all was what would happen if I said 'No' in January and then there was no offer in the summer.

"I had to ask myself, 'Will I look back and 'Should I have done that?'

"When you get an opportunity like this you just have to jump at it."

The Scot added: "I did not feel any added pressure with the fee. I believe in myself and know what I can do. I just tried to play the way I have been with Rangers and Scotland. Spurs have bought me because of that and I hope I can do the same job now I am here."

 

Not wanting to drag anything up but found this and found it an interesting read...

[bmck 117]

look what murray made him say!

[Jon 0]

look what murray made him say!

]]

 

I didnt want to drag anything up and know Barry doesnt intend that, just thought it an interesting read in the context of a very interesting and well written thread by a few posters.

[calscot 0]

I think the crux of it is that people are now criticising Murray no matter what he does. If he didn't sell Hutton he'd be accused of not looking after the money and putting the club into unnecessary debt.

 

If I was in Murray's place I'd have bitten Spurs hand off for 10M for Hutton and personally booted him out the door myself.

 

We'd be crazy not to accept that offer and I think the reaction has definitely been OTT.

 

It will be impossible to prove how much affect his sale will have on our fortunes this season, but Hutton's prevarication has contributed to the lack of a replacements - and by replacements I mean a LEFT back to replace Whittaker and a striker to possibly replace Cousin - and that is the real danger.

 

We have weakened our first team in the short term but I'm sure the money will eventually be spent to improve it in the long term.

 

Without player sales we would have very little budget this summer as we basically spend at least two years player transfer money in the last year.

 

We sold a high performing player in Boumsong a few years ago and the money played a big part in us winning the league.

 

This year we are not so desperate to spend immediately, but I bet Walter will strengthen in the summer for next season, when for the first time in ages, we will not need to completely rebuild the squad.

[bmck 117]

I think the crux of it is that people are now criticising Murray no matter what he does. If he didn't sell Hutton he'd be accused of not looking after the money and putting the club into unnecessary debt.

 

you cant win with some people, its true, but that doesn't mean he is always right.

 

If I was in Murray's place I'd have bitten Spurs hand off for 10M for Hutton and personally booted him out the door myself.

 

if i was in murray's place i wouldnt. so there you have it. its all just opinions

[Wija 0]

So you would have taken �£10 Million... so why did we only accept 8?

 

:fish:

[calscot 0]

So you would have taken �£10 Million... so why did we only accept 8?

 

:fish:

 

Don't know how to take this as I thought it was common knowledge that we accepted 8M up front with 2M of add ons. That makes 10M to me...

[calscot 0]

you cant win with some people, its true, but that doesn't mean he is always right.

 

if i was in murray's place i wouldnt. so there you have it. its all just opinions

 

I've been one of Murray's bigger critics, so you don't have to explain to me that he isn't always right. However, in the last year, I think he's improved immeasurably from the previous 7 years and made some decent decisions, starting with bringing WS back and continuing with the decent amount of spending in the summer.

 

Many fans can now see him do no right in their eyes and are very quick to criticise. I'm a believer of criticising when it's justified and giving credit where it's due. In this case it's a complex and ambivalent decision and I personally think Murray could have been more criticised for not selling Hutton, than selling him. It is not IMHO a decision even slightly worthy of so much derision and more of a case of the head ruling the heart.

 

There is no guarantee that a similar offer would be forthcoming in the summer or that Hutton would not get injured. In fact, according to WS, prices are inflated at this time of year, which is why the deal is so good. It's not too long since we were talking about being happy to accept 5M for Hutton.

 

I think the decision has helped the medium to long term future of success on the field for our club as well as helping towards financial stability.

 

If WS gets half the money in summer plus the usual 3-4M budget plus any other player sales (ie 5.5M + 3M + say 1.5M = 10M; then 5.5M plus any CL profit to lower the debt - say 4.5M = 10M) then I for one will be pretty excited for next season.