craig 5,199 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I think the term "easy draw" has to be a relative term though Cammy. Wales and NI wouldn't be an easy draw for us but SHOULD be for England, given the talent they have at their disposal. I wouldn't bet on Scotland beating eihther of those nations either but I WOULD bet on England beating them (if given decent odds ) Come on Cammy, you are defending England being top of a group that, out of 8 groups, was one of the weakest ? Sweden excepted England didn't have a hard game in that group at all and their last 16 opponents SHOULD have been brushed aside. Reaching quarter finals and semi finals IS a great achievement but it can be argued that England had the most comfortable route to get where they got to. I don't for a minute disagree that we should, as Scotland fans, be jealous of England reaching the finals and getting out of their group in the major tournaments because we ALL would love to be there supporting Scotland (jimmy hats or not... but lets leave that one alone ) BUT..... it cannot be denied that England have seen good fortune in the teams they have been drawn against recently - just look at Holland's group or the Italy group - so to say that they don't get an easy draw is, in my opinion, wrong. Now... if they were paired in our Euro 2008 qualifying group they would struggle to qualify (not as much as we will struggle but struggle nonetheless) because any group with Italy, France and Ukraine will be a monumental task - 3 WC quarter-finalists - yikes !! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CammyF 8,385 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 But, due to Englands success they can't be paired in a group with Italy, Ukrane and France - that isn't luck, it is down to them continually qualifying for and progressing oin copmititions. I don't think you are getting at when I mentioned NI and Wales. It's like a London team winning the EPL - it is considered more of an achievement as they play more local derbies, even tho Chelsea SHOULD beat Arsenal, Spurs, Charlton, West Ham etc every time they play them. The same goes for England when they were paired with Wales, Scotland and or NI. As for this years WC, it was one of the weakest, but NOT the weakest - however, no matter how weak they still had to qualify, which they did at the top of the group. You can not ask for any more than that. And as I said, there is no arguing with Englands recent showings in the World Cup and Euro Championship, I can not remember the last time they failed to reach the knock-out stages of either..... that is down to consistancy not luck Cammy F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Easy draws??? Wales and NI whilst not being the greatest teams, it was 2 local derbies for England I wouldn't have put money on Scotland defeating either nation in a full international (Wales hammered us the last time we played). In the group stages England had Sweden in their group, a nation who do relatively well in the World Cup and still managed to finish top of that group - something Scotland have NEVER achieved. When was the last time Scotland finished 2nd top of a qualifying group as I can not remember it? Would it have been the time we played Holland in a play-off and were thrashed 6-1 on agg? IIRC, England have gotten to 2 semi finals and 3 quarter finals of major championships in recent years - an achievement that most countries would be proud off. Even the English might be proud of this if they took a step back and looked at it in perspective. Cammy F Cammy, yes Poland and Austria were much harder than Italy and Norway (whom we beat after getting in a proper manager). NI and Wales were so good they finished 4th and 5th. Yes Wales beat us a while ago but in my opinion only the ignorant would cite friendlies under Bertie Vogts as evidence... Despite being defeated in a playoff does not change the fact we finished second. I have no idea what your point is there and why that should make us a fourth seed. But defeating a great football nation like the Netherlands at home but being thrashed away, with probably our worst team and manager of all time, is not exactly a disgrace in my eyes. Scotland may not have achieved much, but we have beaten Sweden in the World cup... In 1974, Scotland put out the third favourites (Czechs) in qualification, Beat England in the Home Nations, and then went on to draw with the favourites, Brazil, draw with another good team, Yugoslavia and beat Zaire. We went out on goal difference. According to you we didn't achieve a thing and so were rubbish... I beg to differ. There's a load of stories like that for Scotland and you should know it. I already mentioned the fact that we don't get the luck and have a tendency to shoot ourselves in the foot. I believe that if it wasn't for those two factors plus a string of very poor managers and the consequence of our results that we get harder groups, we could easily have a comparable record to England in international football. And that's despite the fact they have 10 times our population. Maybe I'm a wee bit biased, but hey I'm Scottish... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CammyF 8,385 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Calscot - after taking time out due to your continued abuse of me, I thought we had gotten past this, but no - now I am ignorent and once again, you insinuate and question my nationality...Please can you tell me what your problem with me is? Seriously, this is starting to get personal and I don't know what I've done to deserve it? Please can you either stop abusing me on posts or I will ask (another) admin to either ban you or me from the forum. Cammy F EDIT - This was meant to have been a PM to Calscot but I hit the wrong button (doh) - I was going to delete it, but fcuk it, I'm leaving it up.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I can not remember the last time they failed to reach the knock-out stages of either..... that is down to consistancy not luck Cammy F Never made the WC finals in US in 1994 - just to remind you Cammy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CammyF 8,385 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Cammy, yes Poland and Austria were much harder than Italy and Norway (whom we beat after getting in a proper manager). Did I say that? Doesn't matter who we beat - we didn't qualify and England did - simple as that... Yes Wales beat us a while ago but in my opinion only the ignorant would cite friendlies under Bertie Vogts as evidence So I am ignorant now, add that to the list of personal traites you have claimed that I have... Despite being defeated in a playoff does not change the fact we finished second. I have no idea what your point is there and why that should make us a fourth seed. But defeating a great football nation like the Netherlands at home but being thrashed away, with probably our worst team and manager of all time, is not exactly a disgrace in my eyes. I don't see your point - I asked, apart from that occasion, when did we ever finsih 2nd. Oh, BTW, a 6-0 defeat is a disgrace in anyones lanuage Scotland may not have achieved much, but we have beaten Sweden in the World cup... What does this prove? England have beaten West Germany, Argentina, France etc in World Cup games - what does that prove???? In 1974, Scotland put out the third favourites (Czechs) in qualification, Beat England in the Home Nations, and then went on to draw with the favourites, Brazil, draw with another good team, Yugoslavia and beat Zaire. We went out on goal difference. OK, lets recap - after drawing with Brazil (a game we should have won) and Yugoslavia and defeating Ziare , we went home right? OK we were unlucky, but in the end, we went home - personally, I would have prefered to have scraped a 1-0 win against all 3 teams and qualified, but hey, I'm biased... There's a load of stories like that for Scotland and you should know it. I already mentioned the fact that we don't get the luck and have a tendency to shoot ourselves in the foot. Failing to qualify for the WC and Euro Championships and failing to progress when we do qualify is down to more that 'bad luck' - simple as that.. I believe that if it wasn't for those two factors plus a string of very poor managers and the consequence of our results that we get harder groups, we could easily have a comparable record to England in international football. Utter nonsence - England are a far better team than we are - they constantly qualify for touriments and constantly get to the later stages - it is as simple as that. England have managed this with a string of poor managers..... Maybe I'm a wee bit biased, but hey I'm Scottish... Again, why the insinuation that I am not? I am biased but I am also realistic and admit that we are shit and have been for over 2 decades. IMO the last really good Scotland result was defeating France at Hampden 2-0 (Mojo with both goals). Cammy F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CammyF 8,385 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Never made the WC finals in US in 1994 - just to remind you Cammy Yip, a dozen years ago - oh for being as lucky and as bad as they are... Cammy F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 Yip, a dozen years ago - oh for being as lucky and as bad as they are... Cammy F I wasn't refuting their decent record in qualification Cammy - just thought seeing as you couldn't remember that I would remind you when it last was. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CammyF 8,385 Posted July 5, 2006 Share Posted July 5, 2006 I wasn't refuting their decent record in qualification Cammy - just thought seeing as you couldn't remember that I would remind you when it last was. I was actually thinking it was closer than that - just shows you how your mind can play tricks on you..!! I remember that between 70 and 80 they didn't have a good record of qulaifying especially for the World Cup Cammy F Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colshy18 0 Posted July 6, 2006 Share Posted July 6, 2006 can i just remind a few posters of WHO actually made it to this world cup finals?? yet, this is despite the same people calling the england manager the worst manager ever in history. so, what does that say about the scotland managers then? all this bleeting on about past world cups means nothing in the here and now! question, where were the scotland players when england kicked off against portugal in another world cup quarter final? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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