We haven’t recovered from 2012

[Bill 13,717]

1 hour ago, 26th of foot said:

During 2002, Murray had a dozen companies leeching off Rangers.

 

At the time, Ibrox had more corporate hospitality capability than any other stadium in the UK. Rangers paid to install the kitchens, Murray noted they were only being utilised once a fortnight on average. He formed Azure Catering and the kitchens went 24/7 providing food for hospitality at football, rugby, cricket, .................... speedway grounds across the UK. In it's third year, Azure had a turnover of £22 million and, a profit of £5 million paid to 95% majority shareholder, David Murray.

 

In the fourth year, Rangers were responsible for replacing the kitchens.

 

For every pound he injected into the club after 1998, he took in excess of £11 out.

I've tried to remember what it was back in 1997 or 1998 that signalled a change in Murray's attitude to Rangers ... but it's now lost to me. Whatever it was I do remember thinking Murray had become a liability rather than the asset he undoubtedly had been. Maybe he just grew bored with the kudos of owning Rangers. The reckless spending that came with Advocaat's arrival was the clearest indication he was on a course to destroy Rangers and when he couldn't find a buyer, the inevitable was locked in. That he continued to receive blind support right up to the end should be a lasting memorial to the dangers of group think.

[Bluedell 5,624]

1 hour ago, 26th of foot said:

During 2002, Murray had a dozen companies leeching off Rangers.

 

At the time, Ibrox had more corporate hospitality capability than any other stadium in the UK. Rangers paid to install the kitchens, Murray noted they were only being utilised once a fortnight on average. He formed Azure Catering and the kitchens went 24/7 providing food for hospitality at football, rugby, cricket, .................... speedway grounds across the UK. In it's third year, Azure had a turnover of £22 million and, a profit of £5 million paid to 95% majority shareholder, David Murray.

 

In the fourth year, Rangers were responsible for replacing the kitchens.

 

For every pound he injected into the club after 1998, he took in excess of £11 out.

I'm sure that we have had this conversation before but:

 

When Azure was set up, Murray owned 70%. In its 3rd year of trading, its turnover was £4.4m and losses were £28K.

 

Azure was sold in 2004 to Eliance Events Ltd, a joint venture between Elior (51%) and Murray (49%). Its losses to date at that point were £2.2m.

 

in 2005 and 2006 Azure's turnover was around £14m but they made losses of over £600K in both years.

 

In 2008, Murray sold out his shares to Elior.

 

As for the "For every pound he injected into the club after 1998, he took in excess of £11 out" we had to pay someone for the services and why not a Murray company? Easier to control. How much of that £11 was pure profit? Unknown but it could have been £1.50-£2.00, or even less.

 

The big unknown is whether the services that the Murray companies doing so at market value? Was there a competitive tendering system?

 

There's a lot to criticise Murray for but we should make sure we're making the correct arguments.

 

[26th of foot 6,082]

9 minutes ago, Bill said:

I've tried to remember what it was back in 1997 or 1998 that signalled a change in Murray's attitude to Rangers ... but it's now lost to me. Whatever it was I do remember thinking Murray had become a liability rather than the asset he undoubtedly had been. Maybe he just grew bored with the kudos of owning Rangers. The reckless spending that came with Advocaat's arrival was the clearest indication he was on a course to destroy Rangers and when he couldn't find a buyer, the inevitable was locked in. That he continued to receive blind support right up to the end should be a lasting memorial to the dangers of group think.

Murray was/is a gambler.

 

He is a product of his conditioning, his old man was a professional gambler.

[Bluedell 5,624]

11 minutes ago, Bill said:

I've tried to remember what it was back in 1997 or 1998 that signalled a change in Murray's attitude to Rangers ... but it's now lost to me. Whatever it was I do remember thinking Murray had become a liability rather than the asset he undoubtedly had been. Maybe he just grew bored with the kudos of owning Rangers. The reckless spending that came with Advocaat's arrival was the clearest indication he was on a course to destroy Rangers and when he couldn't find a buyer, the inevitable was locked in. That he continued to receive blind support right up to the end should be a lasting memorial to the dangers of group think.

IIRC, Murray brought in Enic around that time. It allowed him to spend cash that previously wasn't available. As 26th of Foot always says, he was a gambler. He always believed that he could raise more cash. after he spent Enic's cash, he used Dave King's (plus a bit of his own), then NTL then JJB. He was confident in his own infallibility in raising more cash for the club.

 

It was this gambling streak that finally brought his business down as he financed the purchase of property with short term loans rather than mortgage related finance so when the financial crisis happened in 2008 he was screwed. 

[Bluedell 5,624]

2 minutes ago, 26th of foot said:

Murray was/is a gambler.

 

He is a product of his conditioning, his old man was a professional gambler.

I was just posting that (and giving you credit) at the same time as you posted it.  

[compo 7,038]

4 minutes ago, Bluedell said:

IIRC, Murray brought in Enic around that time. It allowed him to spend cash that previously wasn't available. As 26th of Foot always says, he was a gambler. He always believed that he could raise more cash. after he spent Enic's cash, he used Dave King's (plus a bit of his own), then NTL then JJB. He was confident in his own infallibility in raising more cash for the club.

 

It was this gambling streak that finally brought his business down as he financed the purchase of property with short term loans rather than mortgage related finance so when the financial crisis happened in 2008 he was screwed. 

He could go through money like my wife. 😆

[26th of foot 6,082]

5 minutes ago, Bluedell said:

I'm sure that we have had this conversation before but:

 

When Azure was set up, Murray owned 70%. In its 3rd year of trading, its turnover was £4.4m and losses were £28K.

 

Azure was sold in 2004 to Eliance Events Ltd, a joint venture between Elior (51%) and Murray (49%). Its losses to date at that point were £2.2m.

 

in 2005 and 2006 Azure's turnover was around £14m but they made losses of over £600K in both years.

 

In 2008, Murray sold out his shares to Elior.

 

As for the "For every pound he injected into the club after 1998, he took in excess of £11 out" we had to pay someone for the services and why not a Murray company? Easier to control. How much of that £11 was pure profit? Unknown but it could have been £1.50-£2.00, or even less.

 

The big unknown is whether the services that the Murray companies doing so at market value? Was there a competitive tendering system?

 

There's a lot to criticise Murray for but we should make sure we're making the correct arguments.

 

Bluedell,

 

It is in excess of twenty years and my memory is not what it used to be; however, I remember Azure was the idea of a female employee who was rewarded with 5% of Azure equity. Maybe the figures I quoted were from the sixth year extrapolation?

 

Reference Elior, it was based in Nice, France. Murray bought a property and vineyard in the hills north of the town. A number of those leeching companies were also transferred to Elior including Primus and his Ayrshire based Vintners. The perceived wisdom was Murray owned Elior.

 

The final piece of the jigsaw was when Martin Bain bought the bijou vineyard next to Murray's; again, the perceived wisdom being it was a reward for the Boumsong deal.

 

After one of the Charlotte Square meetings with Murray, I was a recipient of a bottle of robust red from Sir David. I passed it to Malcolm.

[Bluedell 5,624]

26 minutes ago, 26th of foot said:

Bluedell,

 

It is in excess of twenty years and my memory is not what it used to be; however, I remember Azure was the idea of a female employee who was rewarded with 5% of Azure equity. Maybe the figures I quoted were from the sixth year extrapolation?

 

Reference Elior, it was based in Nice, France. Murray bought a property and vineyard in the hills north of the town. A number of those leeching companies were also transferred to Elior including Primus and his Ayrshire based Vintners. The perceived wisdom was Murray owned Elior.

 

The final piece of the jigsaw was when Martin Bain bought the bijou vineyard next to Murray's; again, the perceived wisdom being it was a reward for the Boumsong deal.

 

After one of the Charlotte Square meetings with Murray, I was a recipient of a bottle of robust red from Sir David. I passed it to Malcolm.

30% of Azure was owned by Caroline Black and Lawrence Morison. It's probably Black that you remember. Azure did make a profit of £244K in 2008 but that didn't cover the loss in 2007. It just wasn't a profitable business and was sold for £1, IIRC.

 

Elior was an established international catering company when it bought Azure. It had turnover of over £1 billion back in 2004. The "perceived wisdom" was definitely incorrect.

 

I seem to remember you prefer your rosé to your robust reds from the last time I had the absolute pleasure of you and your good lady's hospitality.

[CammyF 8,087]

If I could remember where I kept them, I'd go back and look at a couple of articles I penned for No1 Fanzine and this site regarding Murray but in all honesty I can feel my anger rising just thinking about him and his "legacy".

 

I can't remember when the alarm beting to ring for me, but think it was reading The Gubs articles in FF. I think he was the first or one of the first to predict the inevitable outcome.

 

I'm also sure there was a time when he tried to bring the "fanzines" in-house - no doubt to edit out the growing criticism of him in both zines (and I'm sure the zines were outselling the match day programme).

[RANGERRAB 3,663]

I always thought Murray was spooked when he saw what was going on over the east end during this period. I’d suggest most of our supporters were blissfully unaware.

 

Co-op bank we’re their new bankers & funders brought in by Celtic-supporting SLAB politicians who also facilitated dubious planning permission for the stadium rebuild including a 20000 seater stand fitted into a 43 yard space between the far side touchline & cemetry wall as Brian Wilson likes to boast (others more qualified might suggest otherwise)

 

Murray was starting to look for alternative funding but was getting reckless

 

Edited October 11, 2023 by RANGERRAB