Under 18 League Table

[MacK1950 2,378]

2 hours ago, JohnMc said:

I forgot about Fleck. He's a perfect example of a kid tipped for big, big things, one with obvious talent when he was young, but who simply didn't develop it with us. He couldn't get into Ally's first side and was out on loan at Blackpool and struggling to get a game for them. It was Coventry who figured out his best position and gave him regular game time. He doesn't look out of place in the English top flight now, good on him. 

The difference now is we have the right people in to properly assess the youths.

[buster. 5,199]

12 hours ago, JohnMc said:

It's a little concerning how poorly most of our young players have done out on loan, the two at Ayr and Robbie McCrorie at QOTS seem to be doing okay but it's not a great level, you'd really want to see them doing it week in week out at a mid-level SPFL side before you'd even consider them ready for our first team squad. McPake has struggled at Dundee, Middleton couldn't get into a shit Hibs side, Zac Rudden, Jake Hastie and Ross McCrorie haven't set the heather alight in the lower leagues down south either. 

I suppose the club look at it as a calculated gamble. If they can produce one player that can be sold for a few million it pays for itself, likewise producing a few squad players allows transfer budgets to be spent on better players, no need to sign the Andy Kings and the Sheyi Ojos in the future. 

 

We'll see, much as I like to see us bring through our own I increasingly think professional football clubs shouldn't be allowed anywhere near youth development. 

My impression from afar is that we currently have a football operation (including youth development) that has a level of professionalism higher than Rangers have ever had previously. That's currently a big positive and begs questions of the past wrt making the most of what we had. Touch wood, but for an example of a major positive, I look at our injury list over the time SG&Co have been at the club, it's not about luck.

 

Given the pressure to win or win at Rangers, the fabled pathway is a very difficult engineering project, even if the youth development structure is sound.

As I previously mentioned, If you lose the projected cream then it gets more difficult. If today's system and financial hierarchy was in place when Barry Ferguson  got to his 16th birthday, would he have ever played for us ?

 

Youth Development at Ibrox has been a good news story for a while (the Sinclair departure seems to have been a positive)...but will it produce players for us or are we caught up in a place where the cream go to more resourced clubs and the rest end-up at smaller clubs, where occasionally we end up buying them back ?

 

The only way I see a major change is if we were semi-forced down the road of playing more youngsters because of financial reasons.

 

 

 

[JohnMc 2,754]

12 hours ago, craig said:

Barrie McKay can't really be considered a Rangers youth product though as he came to us from Killie at 17

That's still a youth Craig. Most 17 year olds are still playing age-group appropriate football, McKay did when he joined us. I'm not being a pedant, but the challenge we've regularly failed at is taking a talented 17, 18, 19 year old and turning them into a first team player. McKay managed that and has gone on to have a reasonable career at a decent level. 

[JohnMc 2,754]

2 hours ago, buster. said:

My impression from afar is that we currently have a football operation (including youth development) that has a level of professionalism higher than Rangers have ever had previously. That's currently a big positive and begs questions of the past wrt making the most of what we had. Touch wood, but for an example of a major positive, I look at our injury list over the time SG&Co have been at the club, it's not about luck.

 

Given the pressure to win or win at Rangers, the fabled pathway is a very difficult engineering project, even if the youth development structure is sound.

As I previously mentioned, If you lose the projected cream then it gets more difficult. If today's system and financial hierarchy was in place when Barry Ferguson  got to his 16th birthday, would he have ever played for us ?

 

Youth Development at Ibrox has been a good news story for a while (the Sinclair departure seems to have been a positive)...but will it produce players for us or are we caught up in a place where the cream go to more resourced clubs and the rest end-up at smaller clubs, where occasionally we end up buying them back ?

 

The only way I see a major change is if we were semi-forced down the road of playing more youngsters because of financial reasons.

 

 

 

It's funny you mention the injuries, I've stopped myself mentioning this on a few occasions in case I jinx us! If that does happen it's on you!! ?

 

As regards your 'cream' point I'm far from convinced being an outstanding 16 year old is any indicator of how your career will go. Glance at Scottish international youth sides of the last 30 years and you'll see hundreds of names you don't recognise. In 2014 Scotland under 17s reached the semi-finals of the European Championships, have a look at the squad, how many of those boys, the cream at the time, do you expect to go on and have good to exceptional careers? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_squads#Scotland 

Edited January 9, 2020 by JohnMc

[DMAA 3,658]

1 hour ago, JohnMc said:

It's funny you mention the injuries, I've stopped myself mentioning this on a few occasions in case I jinx us! If that does happen it's on you!! ?

 

As regards your 'cream' point I'm far from convinced being an outstanding 16 year old is any indicator of how your career will go. Glance at Scottish international youth sides of the last 30 years and you'll see hundreds of names you don't recognise. In 2014 Scotland under 17s reached the semi-finals of the European Championships, have a look at the squad, how many of those boys, the cream at the time, do you expect to go on and have good to exceptional careers? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_squads#Scotland 

Quite staggering they made ot to the semi finals of any competition. Went through the players there and the guy playing at the highest level of all of them is Craig Wighton for 2nd bottom Hearts and he's only made 3 appearances all season (albeit he's apparently had an injury). Robby McCrorie looks the pick fo the bunch but most are in the lower divisions.

Edited January 9, 2020 by DMAA

[JohnMc 2,754]

Elfideldo tells of seeing Michael Stewart (yes, that Michael Stewart) as a youngster and just how good he was at that age.

Stewart had everyone wanting to sign him, eventually choosing Man Utd, arguably the best club side in the world at the time and one with a wonderful record of developing young players. We all know how that story ended. Now, Stewart had a decent career, playing over 100 games for Hearts and Hibs, but he achieved nothing like what was expected of him when he was 16. 

It's instructive to look at who are arguably the 'best' Scottish players currently, at least in terms of the level they're playing at every week. John McGinn and Ryan Fraser didn't make any Scotland side until under 19s, and Andrew Robertson never played for any Scotland side before under 21s and was famously released by Celtic and ignored by us while playing in the same league as us. 

I guess the point I'm labouring to make is the correlation between being the 'cream' at 15 or 16 and actually becoming a top class professional is tenuous at best.  

[Gaffer 1,665]

31 minutes ago, JohnMc said:

Elfideldo tells of seeing Michael Stewart (yes, that Michael Stewart) as a youngster and just how good he was at that age.

Stewart had everyone wanting to sign him, eventually choosing Man Utd, arguably the best club side in the world at the time and one with a wonderful record of developing young players. We all know how that story ended. Now, Stewart had a decent career, playing over 100 games for Hearts and Hibs, but he achieved nothing like what was expected of him when he was 16. 

It's instructive to look at who are arguably the 'best' Scottish players currently, at least in terms of the level they're playing at every week. John McGinn and Ryan Fraser didn't make any Scotland side until under 19s, and Andrew Robertson never played for any Scotland side before under 21s and was famously released by Celtic and ignored by us while playing in the same league as us. 

I guess the point I'm labouring to make is the correlation between being the 'cream' at 15 or 16 and actually becoming a top class professional is tenuous at best.  

You've actually picked a great example to illustrate what the major obstacle is between 15/16 and the first team.  Michael Stewart may have been technically very good, but I see hundreds of kids who are technically excellent at 15/16/17.  The ones who make it have the right attitude, but that's missing in most of the youths I see.  Stewart has subsequently proven he's got a massive chip on his shoulder, coupled with a sense of entitlement.  I think that poor attitude is typical of players who are big fish in small ponds at youth level, and therefore fail to make the next step.

 

I have watched boys from age 5/6 develop into some of the most skilful players I've ever seen, but you can see the poor attitude evolve and eventually kill any prospect of a footballing career.  I've no idea how to maintain that hunger and desire to keep improving, but thankfully we have a gaffer who has done it so maybe he can help them.  If he can't, I don't know who can.

 

Clubs get the blame for not developing the players, but these days most clubs follow the same pathways development programme so in my opinion it's 90% down to the attitude of the player.  When our first team stops training, Tav, Barisic, Kent (in particular), Jack, Morelos, Defoe (even eve days) are all staying behind to work on things themselves.  When the youth training stops, very few stay behind to work on anything.  That tells me a lot.

[buster. 5,199]

5 hours ago, JohnMc said:

That's still a youth Craig. Most 17 year olds are still playing age-group appropriate football, McKay did when he joined us. I'm not being a pedant, but the challenge we've regularly failed at is taking a talented 17, 18, 19 year old and turning them into a first team player. McKay managed that and has gone on to have a reasonable career at a decent level. 

Over decades, our hit-rate has been rank awful at improving players of all ages.

Generally, our record on injuries has been rank awful as well.

 

I go back to the marked improvement in levels of professionalism that SG&Co brought with them.

What went before 2015 was various states of poor to awful that at times was masked by chucking money at problems, ...which in turn eventually came home to bite.

[buster. 5,199]

5 hours ago, JohnMc said:

It's funny you mention the injuries, I've stopped myself mentioning this on a few occasions in case I jinx us! If that does happen it's on you!! ?

 

As regards your 'cream' point I'm far from convinced being an outstanding 16 year old is any indicator of how your career will go. Glance at Scottish international youth sides of the last 30 years and you'll see hundreds of names you don't recognise. In 2014 Scotland under 17s reached the semi-finals of the European Championships, have a look at the squad, how many of those boys, the cream at the time, do you expect to go on and have good to exceptional careers? - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_UEFA_European_Under-17_Championship_squads#Scotland 

'Cream' is somewhat subjective but my idea of it is exceptional youth players. If we look at the last 30 years, I'd point to three Barry Ferguson (B), John Fleck and Billy Gilmour.

 

What bigger clubs are doing now is just hoovering up 16 year old talented footballers at cream and cream minus levels.

Further down the food chain, we look to hoover up at a lower level BUT as you say it's down to the acquiring club to improve them.

Now if we are becoming more professional then good BUT as I said before,...then comes the pressures of consistently winning on managers who are expected to provide a pathway.