Tax officials blamed for the downfall of Rangers

[Frankie 8,562]

OK - it seems more information is starting to leak out (including possible letters to former players) and HMRC's claim may indeed be reduced to circa £20m as 'The Times' has noted overnight.

 

IF that's correct (and it remains a big if right now) and the HMRC claim is reduced to £20m then the oldco would still have had a debt of at least £40m in 2011 (i.e. the time of the sale to Whyte).  That's a lot but would have been manageable for sure and was certainly a better situation than what arose from admin.  However, we arguably still would have been owned by Whyte.

 

With that in mind, it's important to note, because of the BTC (and the financial crash of that period), Murray/LBG wanted a sale asap no matter if it was £20m claim, £94m claim or even if Murray had managed to settle (which looks like what should have happened).  Ultimately the sale to Whyte took place before full info of what HMRC wanted was known (publicly at least) - partly because we were still insisting EBT's weren't subject to tax.

 

Nevertheless, questions remain over HMRC timelines and actions.  At what point did they know how much they'd be claiming?  Why did they get their sums so wrong? Who was responsible?  Should a CVA have been agreed?

 

And, of course, the £68.3m question, could/should they have come to a settlement before 2011, making the club more attractive to other interested parties, perhaps avoiding a sale to Whyte? 

 

Lots of questions then and very few answers.  In fact, I doubt we'll ever get answers and the best outcome will be an increased dividend for creditors of the oldco.  All things considered the motivation of many parties is difficult to outline from MIH to LBG to HMRC to Whyte to Green to other clubs to the SFA to the media and to the politicians. What is for sure, an institution fell apart because of their actions and the genuine people that did lose out - from shareholders to creditors to fans, are the victims and that should never be forgotten when it comes to asking for contrition.  

[Stevie - 4lads Blog 922]

27 minutes ago, Frankie said:

OK - it seems more information is starting to leak out (including possible letters to former players) and HMRC's claim may indeed be reduced to circa £20m as 'The Times' has noted overnight.

 

IF that's correct (and it remains a big if right now) and the HMRC claim is reduced to £20m then the oldco would still have had a debt of at least £40m in 2011 (i.e. the time of the sale to Whyte).  That's a lot but would have been manageable for sure and was certainly a better situation than what arose from admin.  However, we arguably still would have been owned by Whyte.

 

With that in mind, it's important to note, because of the BTC (and the financial crash of that period), Murray/LBG wanted a sale asap no matter if it was £20m claim, £94m claim or even if Murray had managed to settle (which looks like what should have happened).  Ultimately the sale to Whyte took place before full info of what HMRC wanted was known (publicly at least) - partly because we were still insisting EBT's weren't subject to tax.

 

Nevertheless, questions remain over HMRC timelines and actions.  At what point did they know how much they'd be claiming?  Why did they get their sums so wrong? Who was responsible?  Should a CVA have been agreed?

 

And, of course, the £68.3m question, could/should they have come to a settlement before 2011, making the club more attractive to other interested parties, perhaps avoiding a sale to Whyte? 

 

Lots of questions then and very few answers.  In fact, I doubt we'll ever get answers and the best outcome will be an increased dividend for creditors of the oldco.  All things considered the motivation of many parties is difficult to outline from MIH to LBG to HMRC to Whyte to Green to other clubs to the SFA to the media and to the politicians. What is for sure, an institution fell apart because of their actions and the genuine people that did lose out - from shareholders to creditors to fans, are the victims and that should never be forgotten when it comes to asking for contrition.  

The major question is - 

 

Did the potential liability make us untouchable? 
 

The answer is yes 

 

As I blogged today, the results of that phantom bill caused 2011 sale etc 

 

Without it we are potentially sold before 

 

 

No one can deny that 

[Frankie 8,562]

1 minute ago, Stevie - 4lads Blog said:

The major question is - 

 

Did the potential liability make us untouchable? 
 

The answer is yes 

 

As I blogged today, the results of that phantom bill caused 2011 sale etc 

 

Without it we are potentially sold before 

 

 

No one can deny that 

Of course it did but it's worth noting SDM had been trying to sell the club (informally at least) without success for several years before 2011 and well before the HMRC investigation in 2010.

 

The bill wasn't known (publicly at least) until after the sale in 2011.  Before that the amount could only be estimated and there was no talk of £94m or anything like it.

[Stevie - 4lads Blog 922]

14 minutes ago, Frankie said:

Of course it did but it's worth noting SDM had been trying to sell the club (informally at least) without success for several years before 2011 and well before the HMRC investigation in 2010.

 

The bill wasn't known (publicly at least) until after the sale in 2011.  Before that the amount could only be estimated and there was no talk of £94m or anything like it.

The threat of millions of pounds litigation & horror stories had been going on since 2008 

 

No one was touching us 

 

Pressure on the bank etc 

 

It’s ok saying that HMRC were owed just £68m, the point is that Huge parts of that debt was caused by Whyte etc - the Phantom bill was a catalyst for everything that happened to us indirectly or directly 

 

That’s my point

 

Had it been administered properly then there’s a chance SDMs £10m settlement offer may have been accepted etc 

 

It’s a debate on Ifs & Buts, there’s certainly no doubt in my mind we were hamstrung because of it 

 

 

[Frankie 8,562]

I don't disagree mate which is why it would be interesting to drill down and find out exactly when HMRC knew the scale of any liability, who knew about it and how did they get it so wrong....

 

Ultimately though, I don't think it makes much difference to where we are now.  There's some talking about merging the old and newco but that seems fanciful to me.

 

FWIW, Murray was talking to The Times about selling the club in 2006 - around the £9m high point of our EBT contributions.  We're always looking for villains and he remains the biggest.

[cooponthewing 1,139]

I don’t know where to begin with this? £24 million in penalties and 12 million in interest that are either off or about to be drastically reduced. The original bill is being acknowledged as circa £20m and manageable.

 

Then the events which seemed to cascade and snowball as if it were pre- planned into administration, and then the Old Co business liquidation. I read that some just want to forget that it happened. With respect; our club was violated and metaphorically raped by people who were intent on destroying us. I’m sure as hell not going to just pretend it never happened.

 

Now it appears this was an orchestrated manoeuvre from suspects , potentially within HMRC and perhaps at the requests of former high ranking political individuals? Imo this all points at an deliberate intention to destroy the club, the culture, lives and an institution for what’s looks like solely sectarian motivation.

 

Just an aside on this; pls remember that there are many who are no longer with us who watched as these bastards violated us, and our club. They didn’t see us come back and can’t be here today as they left us while this was happening. We owe it to ourselves and to everyone who went through this to find those responsible for nailing our club to the floor through their bigoted sectarian hatred. This was massaged to ensure we  didn’t have a chance.

 

Im trying really hard to walk the line here as Admin will pull me up but I’m furious.

[Big Jaws 570]

24 minutes ago, Frankie said:

I don't disagree mate which is why it would be interesting to drill down and find out exactly when HMRC knew the scale of any liability, who knew about it and how did they get it so wrong....

 

Ultimately though, I don't think it makes much difference to where we are now.  There's some talking about merging the old and newco but that seems fanciful to me.

 

FWIW, Murray was talking to The Times about selling the club in 2006 - around the £9m high point of our EBT contributions.  We're always looking for villains and he remains the biggest.

Forgive me if I'm wrong on this mate, from memory, didn't Murray contest a) that there was tax due on the EBT's and b) at the same time make an initial £9mil offer to HMRC with a further £10mil payable over a number of years? From my perspective it seems fairly obvious that he knew it would eventually be found to be taxable but that the HMRC figure was outlandish and when you look at the numbers involved £47 paid into EBT's the figure Murray had isnt a kick in the arse off what was actually owed before HMRC 'sexed it up'!

Edited November 14, 2019 by Big Jaws

[Bluedell 5,625]

1 minute ago, cooponthewing said:

Then the events which seemed to cascade and snowball as if it were pre- planned into administration, and then the Old Co business liquidation. I read that some just want to forget that it happened. With respect; our club was violated and metaphorically raped by people who were intent on destroying us. I’m sure as hell not going to just pretend it never happened.

 

Now it appears this was an orchestrated manoeuvre from suspects , potentially within HMRC and perhaps at the requests of former high ranking political individuals? Imo this all points at an deliberate intention to destroy the club, the culture, lives and an institution for what’s looks like solely sectarian motivation.

It always did appear to be orchestrated. None of that is news.

 

If you're just reaching that conclusion then that's fine. Some of us have been living with that realisation for many years. Rangersrab, for example, has been calling out certain politicians, bankers and others for years.

 

I've been through it all. I just don't feel like wasting more mental anguish on it. The time for establishing those guilty of it was earlier this decade. In my totally uninformed opinion, if it hasn't happened by now, it's not going to happen. They even managed to (deliberately?) cock up the trials of Whyte and D&P.

 

It's now part of the Rangers story and there's little or nothing we can do to change it.

[Bluedell 5,625]

2 minutes ago, Big Jaws said:

Forgive me if I'm wrong on this mate, from memory, didn't Murray contest a) that there was tax due on the EBT's and b) at the same time make an initial £9mil offer to HMRC with a further £10mil payable over a number of years? From my perspective it seems fairly obvious that he knew it would eventually be found to be taxable but that the HMRC figure was outlandish and when you look at the numbers involved £47 paid into EBT's the figure Murray had isnt a kick in the arse off what was actually owed before HMRC 'sexed it up'!

I doubt he knew that it would be found taxable. There was just a risk and he offered a percentage of it to make it go away. A common approach, as I'm sure you know.

[Big Jaws 570]

14 minutes ago, Bluedell said:

I doubt he knew that it would be found taxable. There was just a risk and he offered a percentage of it to make it go away. A common approach, as I'm sure you know.

I don't disagree with your reading of it in the slightest Blue. 

 

The point I'm making is that regardless of Murrays dodgy ego problems the payment he offered was roughly correct based on the figures we know were paid into the EBT's over that period. I'm also using 'sexed up' deliberately as the cabinet minister whom held a position across the city was also embroiled in that affair. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Big Jaws