Graeme Souness: 'Not impossible' for Gerrard to beat Celtic to the title

[pete 2,499]

8 hours ago, craig said:

Being a world class player is not a valid reason, IMO, to suggest he can be successful.  Your quote from Jordan Henderson was ALL about Gerrard as a player.  There is nothing from anyone on Gerrard the manager....because he hasn't been one.  Doesn't mean he cant be, but there is nothing, YET, to suggest he will be.  Rodgers on the other hand has had many years of being a manager and done fairly well whilst being so.  One negative for Rodgers (but good for us) is that his dealings in the transfer market are average at best.  But he has still managed a top club in England and is now off the back of a double treble in Scotland.

 

I only see you using "He was a world class player" and "he is a leader" as your belief.  Being a leader on the pitch has little bearing on being a leader off the pitch.  One of the biggest leaders on the pitch the game has witnessed was Roy Keane - a leader off it ?  He wasn't just unsuccessful as a manager but wasn't liked either.  Maradona was a world class player, a better player than Gerrard... so I assume he was successful as a manager too ? Ummmm, nope, he wasn't.

 

You are trying too hard to look at us in isolation.  Could we have beaten them last season ?  Sure.  Did we ? No.... you see where this is leading, right ?  All "ifs, buts and maybes" - the simple reality is we didn't beat them last season, got drubbed twice and on another occasion were 2-2 with a man advantage and lost. 

 

Then you look at us in isolation by us having a better squad.  I am absolutely certain we will have a better squad too.  But you are ignoring that Celtic won't stand still.  They will recruit too.  And they can spend more on one or two players than we can spend on the whole squad.  Again, where you say we will be stronger there is a very strong case to be argued that Celtic will strengthen even more than us.

 

As I said, the cards, from where I sit, are very firmly stacked against Gerrard.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it is blind hope that he will be successful but it is certainly more than being optimistic too.

 

I would argue that Pep is the best manager in the world right now (though accept it is a subjective topic) - and if he had been appointed our manager I would still be saying that the cards are stacked against him - nothing to do with his ability, but everything to do with our current position and Celtic's.

 

We really need Celtic to miss the CL for the next couple of seasons to see their revenues tumble and a cloth-cutting exercise.

 

All that said, I will still remain hopeful, but realistic, about our chances under Stevie G.

Jesus Craig I am going to go and slash my wrists. Thank god I am not so realistic.

[buster. 5,196]

4 minutes ago, pete said:

Jesus Craig I am going to go and slash my wrists. Thank god I am not so realistic.

Don't call him 'Jesus Craig', it'll only encourage him 

[ian1964 10,724]

10 hours ago, craig said:

Being a world class player is not a valid reason, IMO, to suggest he can be successful.  Your quote from Jordan Henderson was ALL about Gerrard as a player.  There is nothing from anyone on Gerrard the manager....because he hasn't been one.  Doesn't mean he cant be, but there is nothing, YET, to suggest he will be.  Rodgers on the other hand has had many years of being a manager and done fairly well whilst being so.  One negative for Rodgers (but good for us) is that his dealings in the transfer market are average at best.  But he has still managed a top club in England and is now off the back of a double treble in Scotland.

 

I only see you using "He was a world class player" and "he is a leader" as your belief.  Being a leader on the pitch has little bearing on being a leader off the pitch.  One of the biggest leaders on the pitch the game has witnessed was Roy Keane - a leader off it ?  He wasn't just unsuccessful as a manager but wasn't liked either.  Maradona was a world class player, a better player than Gerrard... so I assume he was successful as a manager too ? Ummmm, nope, he wasn't.

 

You are trying too hard to look at us in isolation.  Could we have beaten them last season ?  Sure.  Did we ? No.... you see where this is leading, right ?  All "ifs, buts and maybes" - the simple reality is we didn't beat them last season, got drubbed twice and on another occasion were 2-2 with a man advantage and lost. 

 

Then you look at us in isolation by us having a better squad.  I am absolutely certain we will have a better squad too.  But you are ignoring that Celtic won't stand still.  They will recruit too.  And they can spend more on one or two players than we can spend on the whole squad.  Again, where you say we will be stronger there is a very strong case to be argued that Celtic will strengthen even more than us.

 

As I said, the cards, from where I sit, are very firmly stacked against Gerrard.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it is blind hope that he will be successful but it is certainly more than being optimistic too.

 

I would argue that Pep is the best manager in the world right now (though accept it is a subjective topic) - and if he had been appointed our manager I would still be saying that the cards are stacked against him - nothing to do with his ability, but everything to do with our current position and Celtic's.

 

We really need Celtic to miss the CL for the next couple of seasons to see their revenues tumble and a cloth-cutting exercise.

 

All that said, I will still remain hopeful, but realistic, about our chances under Stevie G.

Agree with this! it's his first job as manager so all we can do is hope SG hits the ground running and becomes successful, he has a tough task for sure, looking forward to see how we set up and play.

[pete 2,499]

1 hour ago, ian1964 said:

Agree with this! it's his first job as manager so all we can do is hope SG hits the ground running and becomes successful, he has a tough task for sure, looking forward to see how we set up and play.

I don't think his experience of a being a manager makes a big difference. It is the players he has, how he gets his players to play for him and his tactical awareness. There are lots of first year managers that win leagues. Yes money will make a difference but it is not the do all or end all. FC Twente have the fourth biggest budget in Holland but got relegated. When they were third bottom they brought in one of the most experienced managers in Holland Gert-jan Verbeek and went further downhill quicker. Sparta Rotterdam brought in Dick Advocaat and they also got relegated. You can pay millions and millions for 11 Messi's but it will not guarantee a good team. It is all if's and but's, but I hope Gerrard has more confidence in his ability to do the job than some on here. I believe Rangers can win the league and yes I thought that last season,and the season before and also will again next season. Maybe I am not a realist but at least I am happy for a few months before a ball is kicked. A dreamer\positive thinker brings more to life than a realist otherwise we would still be running around with spears.  

[craig 5,199]

12 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

Well as has already been stated you can say what you like and if you have already decided it's all stacked against him then you must be in a sorry place awaiting another total failure. You're waiting to see if he's a proven success?  I'm waiting to see if he's a proven failure.

 

We're approaching exactly the same thing from opposite directions.  I'm in a happy place awaiting good times while apparently you're not and my positivity is no more insubstantial than your reasons for negativity.

 

He's unproven you say?  So is your belief that he isn't up to it. 

Can you point me anywhere in my posts where I say he isn't up to it ?

 

Realism is very different to saying he isn't up to it.

Saying the card are stacked against him is very different to saying he isn't up to it.

 

You realise that most of the cards I suggested that were stacked against him are institutional ones (Celtic vs Rangers) and not individual ones (Gerrard).

 

Nowhere did I say Gerrard isn't up to it.

 

Waiting to see if he is a "proven failure" or a "proven success" is exactly the same thing.  And that was my point.  We haven't a clue which one he will be as there is nothing on which to base it, aside from a playing career which is completely different to standing in the dugout.

 

I believe that my observations on why things are stacked against him are not only objective but quantifiable.  Your positivity isn't really quantifiable because you are trying to equate what he did on the pitch and transferring that to the dugout - it is ab apples and oranges scenario.

 

And, yet, strangely enough, I hold out a great deal of hope and optimism about Steven Gerrard.  I just get frustrated when folks try all this "here are the reasons he will be successful" and those reasons are, as I said, flimsy at best when scrutinized.

 

I am not being negative towards Gerrard at all.  Just being realistic.  If he is successful then he will have achieved beyond my expectation and whilst I wouldn't see any need for me to be apologizing, I WILL be the first to laud you for your optimism.

[pete 2,499]

34 minutes ago, craig said:

Can you point me anywhere in my posts where I say he isn't up to it ?

 

Realism is very different to saying he isn't up to it.

Saying the card are stacked against him is very different to saying he isn't up to it.

 

You realise that most of the cards I suggested that were stacked against him are institutional ones (Celtic vs Rangers) and not individual ones (Gerrard).

 

Nowhere did I say Gerrard isn't up to it.

 

Waiting to see if he is a "proven failure" or a "proven success" is exactly the same thing.  And that was my point.  We haven't a clue which one he will be as there is nothing on which to base it, aside from a playing career which is completely different to standing in the dugout.

 

I believe that my observations on why things are stacked against him are not only objective but quantifiable.  Your positivity isn't really quantifiable because you are trying to equate what he did on the pitch and transferring that to the dugout - it is ab apples and oranges scenario.

 

And, yet, strangely enough, I hold out a great deal of hope and optimism about Steven Gerrard.  I just get frustrated when folks try all this "here are the reasons he will be successful" and those reasons are, as I said, flimsy at best when scrutinized.

 

I am not being negative towards Gerrard at all.  Just being realistic.  If he is successful then he will have achieved beyond my expectation and whilst I wouldn't see any need for me to be apologizing, I WILL be the first to laud you for your optimism.

It sounds to me Craig that you have closed the door and looking through the keyhole to see who is there, hoping you can open it again. Einstein was surrounded by realists but it didn't make him wrong.

[craig 5,199]

1 hour ago, pete said:

I don't think his experience of a being a manager makes a big difference. It is the players he has, how he gets his players to play for him and his tactical awareness. There are lots of first year managers that win leagues. Yes money will make a difference but it is not the do all or end all. FC Twente have the fourth biggest budget in Holland but got relegated. When they were third bottom they brought in one of the most experienced managers in Holland Gert-jan Verbeek and went further downhill quicker. Sparta Rotterdam brought in Dick Advocaat and they also got relegated. You can pay millions and millions for 11 Messi's but it will not guarantee a good team. It is all if's and but's, but I hope Gerrard has more confidence in his ability to do the job than some on here. I believe Rangers can win the league and yes I thought that last season,and the season before and also will again next season. Maybe I am not a realist but at least I am happy for a few months before a ball is kicked. A dreamer\positive thinker brings more to life than a realist otherwise we would still be running around with spears.  

You are assuming that because I am trying to show realism that I am not optimistic.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I believe Rangers can win the league too.  But that doesn't mean that we should willfully ignore that Steven Gerrard is trying to do so whilst handicapped institutionally when comparing our resources to Celtic's.

[ian1964 10,724]

3 hours ago, pete said:

I don't think his experience of a being a manager makes a big difference. It is the players he has, how he gets his players to play for him and his tactical awareness. There are lots of first year managers that win leagues. Yes money will make a difference but it is not the do all or end all. FC Twente have the fourth biggest budget in Holland but got relegated. When they were third bottom they brought in one of the most experienced managers in Holland Gert-jan Verbeek and went further downhill quicker. Sparta Rotterdam brought in Dick Advocaat and they also got relegated. You can pay millions and millions for 11 Messi's but it will not guarantee a good team. It is all if's and but's, but I hope Gerrard has more confidence in his ability to do the job than some on here. I believe Rangers can win the league and yes I thought that last season,and the season before and also will again next season. Maybe I am not a realist but at least I am happy for a few months before a ball is kicked. A dreamer\positive thinker brings more to life than a realist otherwise we would still be running around with spears.  

I think I am cautious yet optimistic! just not getting too excited yet! after all the let downs we have had it is now ingrained in me to just say let's see what happens.