Graeme Souness: 'Not impossible' for Gerrard to beat Celtic to the title

[buster. 5,196]

1 hour ago, JFK-1 said:

And I already described exactly why I believe he can be a successful manger, and I think they are all valid points. So. Proven leader and a notable tactical awareness during a game. What else does a manager need?

 

As for them there were times last season we could and should have taken them but didn't. It's hardly unrealistic to think we can take it a step further with a better squad than last season and a more tactically astute manager.

What did Gerrard do as a player who was a proven leader and had notable tactical awareness ?

 

If we are being objective:

 

- He never won a league title..........because the odds were stacked against his team.

 

- He never did anything with England........because of various reasons.

 

- He did inspire to help win various Cup competitions, notably the Champions League against AC Milan.

 

 

ie. he was a fantastic player but apart from that night in Istanbul, he is human and doesn't have magic dust.

 

 

It's about him and his staff building something that we might not see the fruits of in the first season.

Edited June 7, 2018 by buster.

[JFK-1 1,693]

17 minutes ago, buster. said:

What did Gerrard do as a player who was a proven leader and had notable tactical awareness ?

 

If we are being objective:

 

- He never won a league title..........because the odds were stacked against his team.

It has to be noted that not once did I say anything about what he won as a player. What did Rodgers win as a player?

 

Again what I said was to all intents and purposes he appears to have qualities we would hope to have in a manager. Leadership ability and a tactical astuteness.  But don't take my word for it listen to others who are still in the game including the current Liverpool captain.

 

Quote

 Jordan Henderson described Gerrard as "probably the best player this country has ever seen – not only as a player, but also as a leader and a captain."

So, "not only as a player, but also as a leader and a captain."

 

I'm puzzled by a seeming desperation to dispute his known qualities as being a good sign of a promising managerial career.  Yes we all know it's still to be tested that's been done to death further afield than here. But that's actually the very first thing I said when I began this line of thinking. The very first 4 words.

 

Quote

Nothing is ever certain

Now if anyone doesn't want to believe his qualities are the stuff of manager material that's fine but i'm choosing to believe it's highly positive. I don't see the need to flog to death the fact that it's not a definite when I started the whole thing by saying that. We're all agreed on that.

[craig 5,199]

2 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

And I already described exactly why I believe he can be a successful manger, and I think they are all valid points. So. Proven leader and a notable tactical awareness during a game. What else does a manager need?

 

As for them there were times last season we could and should have taken them but didn't. It's hardly unrealistic to think we can take it a step further with a better squad than last season and a more tactically astute manager.

Being a world class player is not a valid reason, IMO, to suggest he can be successful.  Your quote from Jordan Henderson was ALL about Gerrard as a player.  There is nothing from anyone on Gerrard the manager....because he hasn't been one.  Doesn't mean he cant be, but there is nothing, YET, to suggest he will be.  Rodgers on the other hand has had many years of being a manager and done fairly well whilst being so.  One negative for Rodgers (but good for us) is that his dealings in the transfer market are average at best.  But he has still managed a top club in England and is now off the back of a double treble in Scotland.

 

I only see you using "He was a world class player" and "he is a leader" as your belief.  Being a leader on the pitch has little bearing on being a leader off the pitch.  One of the biggest leaders on the pitch the game has witnessed was Roy Keane - a leader off it ?  He wasn't just unsuccessful as a manager but wasn't liked either.  Maradona was a world class player, a better player than Gerrard... so I assume he was successful as a manager too ? Ummmm, nope, he wasn't.

 

You are trying too hard to look at us in isolation.  Could we have beaten them last season ?  Sure.  Did we ? No.... you see where this is leading, right ?  All "ifs, buts and maybes" - the simple reality is we didn't beat them last season, got drubbed twice and on another occasion were 2-2 with a man advantage and lost. 

 

Then you look at us in isolation by us having a better squad.  I am absolutely certain we will have a better squad too.  But you are ignoring that Celtic won't stand still.  They will recruit too.  And they can spend more on one or two players than we can spend on the whole squad.  Again, where you say we will be stronger there is a very strong case to be argued that Celtic will strengthen even more than us.

 

As I said, the cards, from where I sit, are very firmly stacked against Gerrard.  I wouldn't go so far as to say it is blind hope that he will be successful but it is certainly more than being optimistic too.

 

I would argue that Pep is the best manager in the world right now (though accept it is a subjective topic) - and if he had been appointed our manager I would still be saying that the cards are stacked against him - nothing to do with his ability, but everything to do with our current position and Celtic's.

 

We really need Celtic to miss the CL for the next couple of seasons to see their revenues tumble and a cloth-cutting exercise.

 

All that said, I will still remain hopeful, but realistic, about our chances under Stevie G.

[craig 5,199]

1 hour ago, JFK-1 said:

It has to be noted that not once did I say anything about what he won as a player. What did Rodgers win as a player?

 

Again what I said was to all intents and purposes he appears to have qualities we would hope to have in a manager. Leadership ability and a tactical astuteness.  But don't take my word for it listen to others who are still in the game including the current Liverpool captain.

 

So, "not only as a player, but also as a leader and a captain."

 

I'm puzzled by a seeming desperation to dispute his known qualities as being a good sign of a promising managerial career.  Yes we all know it's still to be tested that's been done to death further afield than here. But that's actually the very first thing I said when I began this line of thinking. The very first 4 words.

 

Now if anyone doesn't want to believe his qualities are the stuff of manager material that's fine but i'm choosing to believe it's highly positive. I don't see the need to flog to death the fact that it's not a definite when I started the whole thing by saying that. We're all agreed on that.

I don't see anything in any of that which talks about tactical astuteness.  Nothing.

 

And when it all boils down, it will be his tactical astuteness which will be the thing he needs most, along with his man management abilities (which so far seem to be pretty decent given he called Murphy to wish him well with Scotland - players need to feel wanted and he immediately did so with Murphy).

 

But his man management will be worth nothing if he isn't tactically aware.

 

I would say that your reasons for positivity are very flimsy.

[barca72 440]

34 minutes ago, craig said:

I don't see anything in any of that which talks about tactical astuteness.  Nothing.

 

And when it all boils down, it will be his tactical astuteness which will be the thing he needs most, along with his man management abilities (which so far seem to be pretty decent given he called Murphy to wish him well with Scotland - players need to feel wanted and he immediately did so with Murphy).

 

But his man management will be worth nothing if he isn't tactically aware.

 

I would say that your reasons for positivity are very flimsy.

I don't know about flimsy. I would rather he be positive rather than negative or realistic.
Who have we had since Walter that filled the support with hope?
I know I'll be looking at this upcoming season as the one that turns us around. Let's go !!

[JFK-1 1,693]

1 hour ago, craig said:

I don't see anything in any of that which talks about tactical astuteness.  Nothing.

 

And when it all boils down, it will be his tactical astuteness which will be the thing he needs most, along with his man management abilities (which so far seem to be pretty decent given he called Murphy to wish him well with Scotland - players need to feel wanted and he immediately did so with Murphy).

 

But his man management will be worth nothing if he isn't tactically aware.

 

I would say that your reasons for positivity are very flimsy.

Well as has already been stated you can say what you like and if you have already decided it's all stacked against him then you must be in a sorry place awaiting another total failure. You're waiting to see if he's a proven success?  I'm waiting to see if he's a proven failure.

 

We're approaching exactly the same thing from opposite directions.  I'm in a happy place awaiting good times while apparently you're not and my positivity is no more insubstantial than your reasons for negativity.

 

He's unproven you say?  So is your belief that he isn't up to it. 

Edited June 8, 2018 by JFK-1

[Bearman 9]

Bottom line is Gerrard has ambition to be a manager for the rest of his natural life.

 

Good enough for me.

 

The fact he's chosen Rangers, which could go tit's up (see Craig), to embark on that career pleases me greatly.

[JFK-1 1,693]

6 minutes ago, Bearman said:

The fact he's chosen Rangers, which could go tit's up (see Craig), to embark on that career pleases me greatly.

That's another thing that encourages me to be positive about it. He comes across as a smart guy. He could have chosen an easy start to management by going to some team that doesn't expect to be winning all the time.

 

Instead he chose to come to a team where he knows the expectations are very high, every defeat is a disaster and who have burned through two managers in less than two years. The fact he chose this path must indicate he has supreme confidence he can do this.  If he's confident I'm confident until I have reason to feel otherwise.

[buster. 5,196]

8 hours ago, JFK-1 said:

It has to be noted that not once did I say anything about what he won as a player. What did Rodgers win as a player?

 

Again what I said was to all intents and purposes he appears to have qualities we would hope to have in a manager. Leadership ability and a tactical astuteness.  But don't take my word for it listen to others who are still in the game including the current Liverpool captain.

 

So, "not only as a player, but also as a leader and a captain."

 

I'm puzzled by a seeming desperation to dispute his known qualities as being a good sign of a promising managerial career.  Yes we all know it's still to be tested that's been done to death further afield than here. But that's actually the very first thing I said when I began this line of thinking. The very first 4 words.

 

Now if anyone doesn't want to believe his qualities are the stuff of manager material that's fine but i'm choosing to believe it's highly positive. I don't see the need to flog to death the fact that it's not a definite when I started the whole thing by saying that. We're all agreed on that.

I'm not really bothered about Rodgers in this conversation.

 

It's about what Steven Gerrard and his staff bring to the table and I'd emphasise 'the staff' rather than concentrating on SG on his own.

 

Looking at the manager plus back-up team gives more reason to be optimistic about a positive change IMO.

When we are able to see how the squad is shaping up, we'll have a better idea what type of place the optimism occupies.

[Rousseau 10,634]

I'm hopeful. His leadership ability is well-known, and will be a big thing for us, in terms of group unity and drive.

 

I never thought he was ever tactically astute per se as a player; the changing of a game was always based on his leadership, doing something extraordinary -- we can't rely on our group of players doing something extraordinary to turn a game! However, he may have an appreciation of what the team needs. I do think if Gerrard was in charge in that last Old Firm game when we were a man up, he'd have changed things to take advantage of that. 

 

In fact, @ian1964's video post the other day had a discussion on just that scenario for the U18s, when twice his team were down to 10-men (against Man Utd), he manged to get his team in front in the first game, with Man Utd only equalising in the last minute, then winning the second game. Twice down to 10-men, twice, and not only not capitulating, but turning it around. 

 

Another thing from that video was that Gerrard was apparently missing that 'winning', competitive element with the U18s. With the youths it's sometimes more about the performance aspect -- which he did well with, I believe, playing decent football -- than with winning -- quite rightly, I suppose. But, that winning mentality is one thing we can be very excited about. It's something we've been lacking. 

 

The backroom staff is my main cause for optimism. He's brought in all the pieces of the puzzle that he lacks. The tactical, technical, performance elements, and Gary Mc for experience. 

 

We've also taken away the transfer bureaucracy, with the DoF, allowing all of these coaches and Gerrard himself to focus entirely on what they are good at.