David Bates has signed with Hamburg

[stewarty 2,002]

3 minutes ago, JohnMc said:

I was away last week when Bates to HSV was announced, and so much has happened since it's been forgotten about. One thing that struck me was our recent record in retaining home grown players (I know Bates came from Raith Rovers but he's still a young, Scottish player who developed at the club). 

If different decisions had been made our current squad could have Lewis MacLoed, Barry McKay, Danny Wilson, Billy Gilmour, Charlie Telfer and David Bates in it. We've never adequately replaced MacLoed or McKay and we're going to have to spend money replacing Wilson and Bates. Now each left for different reasons but you'd think we could create an environment at the club where promising home-grown players wouldn't want to leave, for any reason. 

Or, at the very least, they progress with us and we get a fee that reflects their potential/ performance.  Although given how the likes of Telfer and McKay have fared (so far) since leaving, you could argue we did that to some extent.

[Darthter 542]

21 minutes ago, JohnMc said:

I was away last week when Bates to HSV was announced, and so much has happened since it's been forgotten about. One thing that struck me was our recent record in retaining home grown players (I know Bates came from Raith Rovers but he's still a young, Scottish player who developed at the club). 

If different decisions had been made our current squad could have Lewis MacLoed, Barry McKay, Danny Wilson, Billy Gilmour, Charlie Telfer and David Bates in it. We've never adequately replaced MacLoed or McKay and we're going to have to spend money replacing Wilson and Bates. Now each left for different reasons but you'd think we could create an environment at the club where promising home-grown players wouldn't want to leave, for any reason. 

Unfortunately in most cases, money talks - we simply can't offer the cash incentives that other countries/teams can....and that applies to every team in Scotland.

[JohnMc 2,708]

22 minutes ago, stewarty said:

Or, at the very least, they progress with us and we get a fee that reflects their potential/ performance.  Although given how the likes of Telfer and McKay have fared (so far) since leaving, you could argue we did that to some extent.

Telfer is a funny one, his move the Dundee Utd ultimately didn't work out. Utd though were clearly a basket-case club (ironic, I know) being run by an ego driven trust fund child who was more interested in pleasing the unhinged in his support and the media than in properly running his own club. Hence their current position. Had he stayed would things have been different, it's hard to know, but he seems to be finding the Dutch second tier a challenge now too. McKay might be an enigma but I'd love to have kept him, managed properly he's a good player. 

 

As an aside I stumbled across Rhys McCabe last week when on holiday. He's playing for Sligo Rovers, jeez there's a career that didn't fulfil it's potential. 

[JohnMc 2,708]

10 minutes ago, Darthter said:

Unfortunately in most cases, money talks - we simply can't offer the cash incentives that other countries/teams can....and that applies to every team in Scotland.

To an extent I agree. However, Russell Martin isn't playing for nothing, neither is Murphy or Alves or Dorrans. If we'd taken some of their salaries and offered them to McKay, Wilson and Bates would be worse off today? Gilmour clearly had his head turned by the bright lights and yime will tell just how he develops, but the rest could have stayed I think. 

[der Berliner 3,719]

Well, Hamburg, while doomed for relegation this season - first time ever - is still a fine spot to learn his trade. Going by their salaries, he's probably getting somewhere between 6 to 8k a week plus bonuses et al, plays in a good football environment and if he makes his mark, his chances in the market are far superior playing in Germany (and having Rangers in his CV) than they would have been with us. That is the stark truth.

[Darthter 542]

1 hour ago, JohnMc said:

To an extent I agree. However, Russell Martin isn't playing for nothing, neither is Murphy or Alves or Dorrans. If we'd taken some of their salaries and offered them to McKay, Wilson and Bates would be worse off today? Gilmour clearly had his head turned by the bright lights and yime will tell just how he develops, but the rest could have stayed I think. 

A team/manager has to put a realistic value on a player.  Martin, Alves, Murphy, Dorrans etc, were brought in as experienced players to bolster the team.  The club offered these players what they had deemed to be a suitable wage package.....other clubs deemed their value higher & offered more lucrative deals.  Those clubs will generally have a wage structure considerably higher than ours.

 

Was Bates good enough to warrant a 3-4x wage hike???  I can't remember the figures for the others mentioned, but I'd assume the figures are possibly similar wrt to wage increase.

[JohnMc 2,708]

55 minutes ago, der Berliner said:

Well, Hamburg, while doomed for relegation this season - first time ever - is still a fine spot to learn his trade. Going by their salaries, he's probably getting somewhere between 6 to 8k a week plus bonuses et al, plays in a good football environment and if he makes his mark, his chances in the market are far superior playing in Germany (and having Rangers in his CV) than they would have been with us. That is the stark truth.

I understand all that, however surely his first choice was to stay and play for Rangers and if he's earning that kind of salary then a deal shouldn't have been beyond us I'd have thought. In the end he needs replaced, as does Wilson, and there's no guarantee those brought in will be better or cheaper. In the end there seems little point in having a youth system and scouting if we let half of them leave for nothing. 

[Darthter 542]

Here's a challenge for everyone:

Go & ask your boss to double your wages....your justification is that you've been working hard & performing quite well, but expect to get better at your job over the next 4 years.

 

Lets see how many are successful....

[JohnMc 2,708]

8 minutes ago, Darthter said:

A team/manager has to put a realistic value on a player.  Martin, Alves, Murphy, Dorrans etc, were brought in as experienced players to bolster the team.  The club offered these players what they had deemed to be a suitable wage package.....other clubs deemed their value higher & offered more lucrative deals.  Those clubs will generally have a wage structure considerably higher than ours.

 

Was Bates good enough to warrant a 3-4x wage hike???  I can't remember the figures for the others mentioned, but I'd assume the figures are possibly similar wrt to wage increase.

Bates is just the latest, I was really highlighting the pattern of letting our better young players leave and the potential folly of that. I think we'd all agree that Martin and Alves haven't shown themselves to be considerably better than Bates and Wilson and neither offers much long term either, unlike the two we've allowed to leave for nothing. 

We seem to be able to produce about 1 player every couple of seasons currently, but so far all have left the club before they should have. It doesn't strike me as great business or football business. 

[JohnMc 2,708]

3 minutes ago, Darthter said:

Here's a challenge for everyone:

Go & ask your boss to double your wages....your justification is that you've been working hard & performing quite well, but expect to get better at your job over the next 4 years.

 

Lets see how many are successful....

Darther, football isn't like 'normal' work, and you must know that. There is little point in making comparisons between professional footballers and call centre workers or joiners.