Steve Naismith

[R.B. 0]

I intended to reply big time to this thread, but cant today, however keep posting folks as its turning out to be a good argument. (Altho Cammy and me seem to be the only ones on the same planet - Calscot im not sure what you've been smoking lately mate i think we lost you in cyber space )

 

Thats the first time ive agreed with you for weeks now.

 

[calscot 0]

In fact, sign 11 SPL players and we'll (if we haven't already done so) become an average, run of the mill, SPL team.

Cammy F

 

You're logic is very flawed here and only makes sense if we sign run of the mill SPL players ie average players from any given team (or the special case that all SPL players are the exactly the same standard).

 

If we sign the BEST players from the other SPL teams, it follows that we'll have the BEST SPL team as our players will be the BEST in Scotland, BETTER than the players of the other teams.

 

The only teams that could possibly be better than us are teams who bring in better players from other leagues (eg Celtic) or produce better players than we have and refuse to sell them.

 

Cherry picking other teams in your league has long been a way of winning it as not only should you have the best team, you weaken the other teams too.

 

I would say Naismith is Kilmarnock's best player so I don't know how you can consider him "run of the mill".

[calscot 0]

I intended to reply big time to this thread, but cant today, however keep posting folks as its turning out to be a good argument. (Altho Cammy and me seem to be the only ones on the same planet - Calscot im not sure what you've been smoking lately mate i think we lost you in cyber space )

 

Well I've re-read my posts and I'm looking forward to find out exactly what you have a problem with...

 

If you think signing the best players from each team makes you average then I'm glad I didn't go to your school of logic...

 

If you think signing a foreigner is automatically better than an SPL player, then your train of logic is broken down at the station.

 

My point is not that we should definitely only sign SPL or Scottish players, or even Naismith in particular, but that foreigners are not automatically better and lately they've been worse and not value for money.

 

Secondly when you sign the best players in the league you don't end up with a run of the mill team - in Europe maybe but not in your own league.

 

If you think these points are from another planet, then I don't see how you can be from Earth...

[bmck 117]

If you think signing the best players from each team makes you average then I'm glad I didn't go to your school of logic...

 

not really an issue of logic, that, i dont think. its a matter of experience, or investigation. moreso its an issue of language.

 

you could buy the best players from every team and still have an 'average' side. taken purely logically you would have an 'above average' side (at best), but if there isn't a big difference between the best and worst players then logic proves useful, as usual, only in theory.

 

and this is what cammy and co are arguing. that despite these players being largely better than their teammates, then are not good enough to bring us significantly above the other teams. this isn't a matter of logic, this is a matter of experience. and this is where the debate must take place - in arguing whether bringing the best of a bad bunch will make us significantly better than the rest of the bunch.

 

so lets leave jibes about logic out of it, because its of no use here - its simply a creating a strawman of their argument to knock down. its playing on two senses of the word 'average' to your gain.

 

incidentally, i agree with you that naismith would be a good signing. better than the likes gribz, unfathombly in my mind, favours. but making this an issue of logic simply is illogical in this case.

[Super_Ally 0]

Over a mil for Naismith now?

 

Give Lennon a chance.

[ascender 352]

I think the figures are wrong for Naismith, but I do think we'll get him and that at sensible money, he's a good signing.

 

I can see the argument against signing some of the better players in the SPL, but at the moment, I don't think we have any other choice? I know that sounds defeatist, but honestly, even if DM digs deep this summer, there's no way WS would have enough money to sign all the players he wants to, let alone needs to.

 

I could be wrong, but I'm assuming that instead of spending money on unproven foreign players, WS is looking to bolster the squad with Scottish lads who he knows well and knows can cope with life in the SPL. That will then leave any money from DM to spend on players who already command a fee (like Brown) or for 2 or 3 players from elsewhere who will cost money.

 

I think its maybe a case of having to step back a bit before going forward, but I don't think we'll be stepping back to the point where we're struggling to finish 2nd. We will challenge Celtic next season and if there's progress in how the team is playing, with investment in the next couple of windows, then I'd be happy with a comfortable 2nd place. I said that under PLG at the start, I'd take a 2nd place finish if we were making progress on the pitch and I think WS deserves the same chance as he's inherited a right mess.

[calscot 0]

you could buy the best players from every team and still have an 'average' side. taken purely logically you would have an 'above average' side (at best), but if there isn't a big difference between the best and worst players then logic proves useful, as usual, only in theory.

 

Yes it's theoretical but without such theories we'd be as well signing players at random.

 

My theory is that if you take away the old firm for the moment and now take the best 11 players from the other ten team. It follows to me that that new team is very probable in being better than all those other teams.

 

I fail to see any flaw in that logic.

 

Yes there is a chance it will not work especially as the assessment is subjective and there are many other factors due to football being a team game.

 

However this is better than making illogical statements to support what then appears to be a subjective disdain for Scottish based players.

 

If logic is not a useful basis to start from in practice, how are managers making their decisions on who to buy?

 

I must admit I thought Eck's and Le Guen's buys seemed pretty illogical but look where that got them (Eck was successful BEFORE he bought many players). Walter's buys seem to have been eminently logical to me and look at our results now...

[CammyF 8,013]

OK, I'll trying putting it over this way - would you prefer a Dado Prso for NOTHING or a Naismith for £1 million?

 

Blackburn signed Benni McCarthy from Porto for just over £2M pounds (the same as we paid Hibs for Thomson) - this is a man who has a proven goal-scoring record at every level he has played at, including the Champions League.

 

I can't see how taking the supposed best players from Kilmarnock (and Falkirk and St Mirren) is going to improve Rangers. With no disrespect to the above teams, Falkirk and St Mirren are actually 'below' run of the mill SPL teams, so therefore, it could be argued, that even their best players are not of the standard required to lift us from the terrible position we currently find ourselves in.

 

Cammy F

[ascender 352]

OK, I'll trying putting it over this way - would you prefer a Dado Prso for NOTHING or a Naismith for �£1 million?

 

Blackburn signed Benni McCarthy from Porto for just over �£2M pounds (the same as we paid Hibs for Thomson) - this is a man who has a proven goal-scoring record at every level he has played at, including the Champions League.

 

I can't see how taking the supposed best players from Kilmarnock (and Falkirk and St Mirren) is going to improve Rangers. With no disrespect to the above teams, Falkirk and St Mirren are actually 'below' run of the mill SPL teams, so therefore, it could be argued, that even their best players are not of the standard required to lift us from the terrible position we currently find ourselves in.

 

Cammy F

 

Totally agree Cammy, but the Prso's of this world are very few and far between. Also don't forget that we signed Prso when he was past his best. For every player like him, there's probably 3 or 4 out there who won't show his level of commitment or have his class.

 

McCarthy is a steal, but I bet he's on wages that we simply couldn't afford anymore and I can't imagine a player like him wanting to come to the SPL. That for me is pretty depressing, that 9 out of 10 players in Europe would rather play for any team in the Premiership than come to a club where you could win trophies and have regular European footy. Its all about the money.

 

Scottish football's stock has been rising though, particularly in terms of the young players coming through now, so that's why guys like Thomson are worth 2M or so. He won't be on silly wages and if he improves even a bit with us, we'd probably get our money back.

 

I think you're right in principle though, just signing the best other players from the SPL maybe isn't a recipe for success. WS has shown what can be done with the current group of players, but he needs a stronger squad and I'm still not convinced some of these guys will produce the goods over a season. But I do think that we're better off spending some of our money on guys like Naismith to improve the squad. However, we still need to supplement them with a few players who are established in Europe and who have a proven track record.

 

I honestly don't know where

[Guest stefanklos n1]

he will be a good prospect for rangers