Steven Davis on a return to Ibrox Rumour!

[DMAA 3,658]

1 hour ago, Rousseau said:

I could get behind that statement. Your previous statement was just plain wrong.  

 

Of course he has to get credit for the above signings; they were signed when he was manager. Now you're just massaging the facts. 

 

At the time it looked like Cardoso was a good signing; young prospect, for not too much outlay. I don't think he'll be on that much, but he's certainly not at the quality we need. We were paying for potential there, though; which was one of your points. 

 

We did need experienced players too that could play to a good standard now. Candeias and Alves have fit that bill. 

Yes it was wrong, I had in mind his personal signings from his network. I was more thinking of what he brought to the table in terms of signings. The likes of Jack and Dorrans would have been suggested to whoever was the manager at the time imo, and Morelos was a Johanssen find. But I was wrong to say he as manager didn't employ either tactic because he agreed to spending good money on Morelos and Dorrans.

 

From the outside, it seems as though Caixinha's personal signings were Pena, Herrera, Cardoso, Alves, Candeias and Dalcio.

 

The "gem unearthing" tactic is obviously very hard, but Cardoso was never going to be one whereas Morelos ticked all the boxes. Morelos was 2 years younger, and very much proven at a lower level.

 

I remember reading a wee scout report of Cardoso when he signed which said,

"He’s not particularly robust in the tackle or in the air. He won only 53.18 per cent of his aerial duels in Portugal’s top flight last season (61st among all defenders who spent time at centre-back)". Another british Portugeuse football pundit said he was "surprised" and said something like he had never really stood out.

 

Centre backs aren't successful at Rangers with those characteristics. It just doesn't happen. In fact with those characteristics your career as a centre back in general can only go so far. Nobody had any excuse for thinking they were unearthing a gem with Cardoso. £1.3m seems to be an inflated transfer fee and I think we'd be lucky to ever get it back.

[Rousseau 10,626]

16 minutes ago, DMAA said:

Yes it was wrong, I had in mind his personal signings from his network. I was more thinking of what he brought to the table in terms of signings. The likes of Jack and Dorrans would have been suggested to whoever was the manager at the time imo, and Morelos was a Johanssen find. But I was wrong to say he as manager didn't employ either tactic because he agreed to spending good money on Morelos and Dorrans.

 

From the outside, it seems as though Caixinha's personal signings were Pena, Herrera, Cardoso, Alves, Candeias and Dalcio.

 

The "gem unearthing" tactic is obviously very hard, but Cardoso was never going to be one whereas Morelos ticked all the boxes. Morelos was 2 years younger, and very much proven at a lower level.

 

I remember reading a wee scout report of Cardoso when he signed which said,

"He’s not particularly robust in the tackle or in the air. He won only 53.18 per cent of his aerial duels in Portugal’s top flight last season (61st among all defenders who spent time at centre-back)". Another british Portugeuse football pundit said he was "surprised" and said something like he had never really stood out.

 

Centre backs aren't successful at Rangers with those characteristics. It just doesn't happen. In fact with those characteristics your career as a centre back in general can only go so far. Nobody had any excuse for thinking they were unearthing a gem with Cardoso. £1.3m seems to be an inflated transfer fee and I think we'd be lucky to ever get it back.

Semantics. They were Caixinha signings; he had the final say. 

 

There were question marks around Cardoso, but most saw him as a good prospect; young, technical with a potential sell-on value. I think players come to this league all the time, lacking that physical presence and then develop it here to become better players. Wanyama is the perfect example -- and even Van Dijk to a lesser degree. Wanyama barely played initially because he could not deal with the physical nature of the league, but once he did, he became a superb defensive midfielder. 

 

It's a bit of a generalisation to state CB's "aren't successful at Rangers with those characteristics". Papac was pretty weak and poor physically when he arrived but developed into a superb LB. 

 

There may be more demanded of a CB initially, but I think the same applies: they become better as they become more muscular, more physical. That applies to Cardoso. Just because he's not physical now doesn't mean he can't in the future. I will concede he's not developing quickly enough, though. I think he has become stronger, but certainly not enough. On balance, I don't think he'll be good enough. Just because he's not developed, doesn't mean he didn't have the potential.

 

It doesn't matter. I agree with the two-pronged approach -- although I would like to see it supplemented with quality players now, regardless of nationality. I only disagreed with your claim that Caixinha didn't use the tactic; he did, although he didn't use it enough.   

[Uilleam 5,939]

Quick first touch answer:

 

Cardoso or Kiernan?

Edited February 20, 2018 by Uilleam

[DMAA 3,658]

58 minutes ago, Rousseau said:

Semantics. They were Caixinha signings; he had the final say. 

 

There were question marks around Cardoso, but most saw him as a good prospect; young, technical with a potential sell-on value. I think players come to this league all the time, lacking that physical presence and then develop it here to become better players. Wanyama is the perfect example -- and even Van Dijk to a lesser degree. Wanyama barely played initially because he could not deal with the physical nature of the league, but once he did, he became a superb defensive midfielder. 

 

It's a bit of a generalisation to state CB's "aren't successful at Rangers with those characteristics". Papac was pretty weak and poor physically when he arrived but developed into a superb LB. 

 

There may be more demanded of a CB initially, but I think the same applies: they become better as they become more muscular, more physical. That applies to Cardoso. Just because he's not physical now doesn't mean he can't in the future. I will concede he's not developing quickly enough, though. I think he has become stronger, but certainly not enough. On balance, I don't think he'll be good enough. Just because he's not developed, doesn't mean he didn't have the potential.

 

It doesn't matter. I agree with the two-pronged approach -- although I would like to see it supplemented with quality players now, regardless of nationality. I only disagreed with your claim that Caixinha didn't use the tactic; he did, although he didn't use it enough.   

It’s true that many have become better at the physical side of the game here, but Cardoso doesn’t have anything like the physical potential of Wanyama and Van Dijk. Both were already big physical guys. In fact with Wanyama I initially thought it was the technical side of his game that needed work. Van Dijk is 6 foot 4 and would almost certainly have already had an impressive aerial duel record before being signed. Cardoso’s record was appalling. 

 

Papac was most most successful at left back, alongside the tough tackling 6 foot 3 pairing of Weir and Cuellar. He wouldn’t have excelled at centre back because the physical demands are far greater. 

[Rousseau 10,626]

1 hour ago, DMAA said:

It’s true that many have become better at the physical side of the game here, but Cardoso doesn’t have anything like the physical potential of Wanyama and Van Dijk. Both were already big physical guys. In fact with Wanyama I initially thought it was the technical side of his game that needed work. Van Dijk is 6 foot 4 and would almost certainly have already had an impressive aerial duel record before being signed. Cardoso’s record was appalling. 

 

Papac was most most successful at left back, alongside the tough tackling 6 foot 3 pairing of Weir and Cuellar. He wouldn’t have excelled at centre back because the physical demands are far greater. 

It's all relative. To go back to the main point, he was still a young player with potential. Are you trying to say he had no potential? He had potential, therefore Caixinha was looking to unearth young gems. Hindsight's a wonderful thing. I would still say he has potential, although I doubt it'll be fulfilled here. 

 

Papac is an example of a player looking less physically imposing doing a good job for Rangers. 

 

Your claim that to be a successful CB you need to be a physical brute is quite subjective. And I certainly don't think a Centre-back has a more physically demanding job than a FB. 

[DMAA 3,658]

13 minutes ago, Rousseau said:

It's all relative. To go back to the main point, he was still a young player with potential. Are you trying to say he had no potential? He had potential, therefore Caixinha was looking to unearth young gems. Hindsight's a wonderful thing. I would still say he has potential, although I doubt it'll be fulfilled here. 

 

Papac is an example of a player looking less physically imposing doing a good job for Rangers. 

 

Your claim that to be a successful CB you need to be a physical brute is quite subjective. And I certainly don't think a Centre-back has a more physically demanding job than a FB. 

The disagreement is just over whether he fits into that first category of signing I outlined earlier, a young player who will develop with us and likely be sold on for a good profit. For me it's a no. He was already 23 and cost a hefty £1.3m without good reason to believe he was even worth that price with such poor defensive stats.

 

With regards to the comment about which position is more physically demanding, I didn't actually mean it like that I just meant stature and strength. The best centre backs Rangers have had have been tall and strong, Weir and Cuellar the best recent examples. Same for Celtic, Van Dijk most recently and Balde, Varga and Valgaeren going further back. All very big stong guys who could effortlessly defend set pieces all day. The best fullbacks can compete in the air but they don't need to be big strong bullies who win all their aerial battles.

[Rousseau 10,626]

9 minutes ago, DMAA said:

The disagreement is just over whether he fits into that first category of signing I outlined earlier, a young player who will develop with us and likely be sold on for a good profit. For me it's a no. He was already 23 and cost a hefty £1.3m without good reason to believe he was even worth that price with such poor defensive stats.

 

With regards to the comment about which position is more physically demanding, I didn't actually mean it like that I just meant stature and strength. The best centre backs Rangers have had have been tall and strong, Weir and Cuellar the best recent examples. Same for Celtic, Van Dijk most recently and Balde, Varga and Valgaeren going further back. All very big stong guys who could effortlessly defend set pieces all day. The best fullbacks can compete in the air but they don't need to be big strong bullies who win all their aerial battles.

I don't think £1.3m for a 23-year-old defender is excessive. I still think it's too early to say. He's only been here 6 months, with little football; and although he's not developed -- not surprising, really -- I think he's still got potential. We've not developed him yet. There's no doubt that was the intention, though; so he has to fit into that category. 

[Unicorn 206]

I think Cardoso has potential in the way that all 23 year old professional footballers have potential.

 

I think the problem is some seem to talk about developing player potential in a completely abstract way as if they are talking about cultivating crops or something.  Football has far too many variables for a transfer policy like that to be anything other than risky - even when part of a multiple pronged approach.

Edited February 20, 2018 by Unicorn

[DMAA 3,658]

On ‎20‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 14:15, DMAA said:

The best centre backs Rangers have had have been tall and strong

Interesting wee article from the Scotsman today on the best defenders in the air. Good to see Alves topping it, but I was disappointed to see Bates at 9th despite being 6 foot 4 and this being considered one of his strengths.

 

Celtic's two main centre backs in top 5. They've still got the edge at corners in my opinion and it's something we need to look at for future defensive recruitments.

 

https://www.scotsman.com/image-gallery/in-pictures-most-aerially-dominant-centre-backs-1-4696723/4696724/img14696722

 

[Rousseau 10,626]

It's one of the things I like about Alves -- an almost 80% win rate in the air is phenomenal!