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[forlanssister 3,114]

Most people/studies seem to indicate that football is an area where there is still a deep rooted problem as evidenced by the paucity of gay players who are open about it (in the male game, at least.)

 

That's probably a correct assumption.

 

I grew up in the West coast of Scotland in the 60s and 70s. I suspect that you were the same? Or not far away in years and geography. I'm not sure we have the same attitude, however. (Just an observation and, you did add "(among other factors)". We may have, come to that. It's hard to tell.

 

I grew up in the Fire and Brimstone Presbyterian stronghold of North East Scotland in the 60's and 70's in a mixed Plymouth Brethren/Church of Scotland household. Strangely growing up there and then provided a shelter from sectarianism which was something I never encountered till I started going to Glasgow.

 

 

I thought JohnMcs point was that we can outgrow said shaping as society itself progresses away from bigoted attitudes. Apologies if I am misunderstanding or misquoting.

 

Indeed we can and sometimes but not always do outgrow that but not everyone grows at the same rate and just because someone's view s haven't caught up with the rest of society doesn't in my opinion mean they are bigoted.

 

i suspect that your attitude is vastly different to what it was when you were in early teens. I cringe to think of how anyone gay in our school would have felt. I left at 16 and went into a more adult world and the shaping began to change very quickly, especially as I knew and had a relationship with a bi-sexual lady in my late teens and I was very heavily into music where barriers had been torn down in the preceding years.

 

There is little doubt my attitude to most things today is different to what it was in my teens and I suspect nearly everyone's is. One in particular being that I thought homosexuality was in itself wrong but back then that was the commonly held view, I've long since stopped thinking that way and view such an opinion to be outdated but understand why others haven't.

[forlanssister 3,114]

I feel sure it holds true for both:

 

"We don't allow people to express opinions such as paedophilia, incest, torture, cannibalism, indiscriminate killing and so forth are jolly good things ..."

 

I don't think it does hold true for wider society, a few clicks of the mouse and you can see that.

Edited August 8, 2017 by forlanssister

[pete 2,499]

 

I just wonder what the feelings are about this film that has gone viral.

I personally have mixed feelings on it. While I understand the message is that it tells kids it is okay to have these feelings it may also cause some to chase people who do not have these feelings and cause problems. It may also be promoting kids to have these feelings. As I say I get the main message I am just not sure everything will work out as in the film.

[Gaffer 1,665]

What have I twisted? I'm trying to keep the 'debate' on topic, it's not me who introduced the Spanish problem or any of the other tangents. I tried to answer every point you raised.

How do you get through 90 minutes at Ibrox with that aversion to swearing you apparently have, how does that work for you? Sometimes swearing is required, it adds emphasis and conveys feeling, in that context I felt it helped convey my feelings towards the opening line of your previous post. I apologised at the time.

 

You are asking me how do I get though 90 minutes at Ibrox with all that swearing? I don't like it but I have little option but to tolerate it, just as many of the minorities we've discussed on here have to put up with language they find distasteful. However, once again you're showing yourself to be someone who believes you can decide what is acceptable and what isn't. Equally, you found it appropriate to express yourself using language which was applied purely and simply to offend me. Pretending it was used for any other purpose is just nonsense. Apologising afterwards makes it ok does it? If you thought that, just delete it before you send it. The hypocrisy you're exhibiting is astounding. You're throwing stones from a very large glass house.

[RiverBear7 0]

I've read the thread again and I can't see where anyone told Pete, or anyone else, they weren't "allowed" certain opinions.

 

This, to me, is a key point. When choosing words to describe each other, it's not unreasonable, or stifling of free speech to question discriminatory speech. No one can really stop you from doing so, but there is a responsibility that comes along with free speech that allows people to respond and challenge it.

 

When words like 'homo' are used, I care more about the person whose whole identity has been mocked, more than someone who wants to say it without challenge just because they can. I know that largely wasn't the case here, but until you can actually show me a reasonable example of being literally stopped from using words like this, I would give the free speech argument a rest.

[RiverBear7 0]

Re immigrants I feel that too much is thrown their way when we have many of our own country persons living on breadline,having to put up with work assessment etc. who should be benefiting more than immigrants.

 

I work professionally with immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers, and while you may not believe me, I can tell you categorically that it is untrue that they get anything more than native British people, and in many cases, get much much less while the govt get away with it due to their vulnerability.

 

You may not agree with that, which I guess is up to you (though I would urge you to ask more questions which I may be able to answer, or research yourself away from the tabloid media), but even if you don't agree, I will share an old joke that I like:

 

Around a table is a rich man, a working class man, and an immigrant. There are 10 biscuits on the table. The rich man takes 9 of them and then nudges the working class man and says "watch out, that immigrant is here for your biscuit".

 

That's the point, working class Brits and immigrants face largely the same challenges, and they are caused by huge inequality in our society. I'm not calling for communism or anything, but if things were distributed more fairly, people coming to this country wouldn't seem like a threat at all.

[Bluedell 5,624]

Around a table is a rich man, a working class man, and an immigrant. There are 10 biscuits on the table. The rich man takes 9 of them and then nudges the working class man and says "watch out, that immigrant is here for your biscuit".

What's a working class man?

 

Who paid for the biscuits?

[Devil's advocaat 1,541]

That's a very good analogy riverbear.

 

Divide and conquer has been a very simple yet effective tactic for many government over the years.

[forlanssister 3,114]

I work professionally with immigrants, refugees and asylum seekers, and while you may not believe me, I can tell you categorically that it is untrue that they get anything more than native British people, and in many cases, get much much less while the govt get away with it due to their vulnerability.

 

The "native British people" as you describe them have paid into the collective pot via their NIC's. I have former tenants who haven't set foot in the UK in over 9 years still receiving Child Benefit.

 

That's the point, working class Brits and immigrants face largely the same challenges, and they are caused by huge inequality in our society. I'm not calling for communism or anything, but if things were distributed more fairly, people coming to this country wouldn't seem like a threat at all.

 

If things were distributed less freely they wouldn't be making a beeline for the UK in the first place. Refugees and Asylum Seekers are supposed to register and apply as soon as they enter the EU, those in the camps in Calais are not fleeing persecution they're attempting to flee France. Brexit will not make a blind bit of difference to that either.

[JohnMc 2,751]

You are asking me how do I get though 90 minutes at Ibrox with all that swearing? I don't like it but I have little option but to tolerate it, just as many of the minorities we've discussed on here have to put up with language they find distasteful. However, once again you're showing yourself to be someone who believes you can decide what is acceptable and what isn't. Equally, you found it appropriate to express yourself using language which was applied purely and simply to offend me. Pretending it was used for any other purpose is just nonsense. Apologising afterwards makes it ok does it? If you thought that, just delete it before you send it. The hypocrisy you're exhibiting is astounding. You're throwing stones from a very large glass house.

 

Yes Gaffer, you having to listen to people swearing at the football is exactly the same as institutional discrimination against the LGBT community, good comparison. I don't decide what is acceptable and what isn't for anyone but myself, but if you can find an example of it then let me know.

You know Gaffer I'm doing my best to keep playing the ball not the man here but you make it difficult. Why don't you put me on your ignore list, it must be getting very fucking tedious for everyone else. Oops.