No quality, no bottle, no Progrès - Should the manager be sacked?

[the gunslinger 3,366]

"Why are goalkeepers so rarely effective managers? Which ex-keeper has the best management record ever?" muses Mike Shearing.

 

It's partly a numbers game. With ten outfield players to every keeper, there's a far smaller pool of potential candidates. It's also worth bearing in mind that keepers tend to have longer playing careers. In England alone, John Burridge, Steve Ogrizovic, Neville Southall and Dave Beasant have all made top-flight appearances after the age of 40.

 

The most successful keeper-manager ever is surely the late Raymond Goethals. Born in Brussels in 1921, Goethals enjoyed a modest playing career between the sticks for minor Belgian clubs Daring and Racing de Bruxelles. However, as Xavier Lizin points out, there is nothing modest about his coaching CV. In 1993, Goethals guided Marseilles to victory in the Champions League final against a Milan side that included Marco van Basten, Franco Baresi and Frank Rijkaard.

 

It was the crowning moment of Goethal's managerial career. As coach of Belgium, he had led his country to the 1970 World Cup n Mexico, the first time they had qualified for 16 years, and also to a third-place finish in the 1972 European Championships. He reached two consecutive European Cup Winners' Cup finals with Anderlecht, winning the trophy in 1978, and also tasted domestic league and cup success with Standard Liege. His career as Marseilles manager, meanwhile, included three successive league titles and, two years before the historic win over Milan, a European Cup final defeat to Red Star Belgrade.

 

A respectful nod also goes to former United States manager Bruce Arena. While Arena's greatest claim to fame as a player is a solitary appearance in the US goal for a 2-0 loss to Israel in 1973, his accomplishments as a coach are considerable. His DC United side not only won the first two MLS championships and the 1998 CONCACAF Champions Cup but beat Brazilian side Vasco da Gama over two legs to win the Interamerican Cup. In 2002 Arena also led America to the last eight of the World Cup while, in April 2006, the US achieved a best-ever Fifa world ranking of fourth.

 

Dino Zoff is worth a mention too. After captaining Italy to the 1982 World Cup, aged 40, Zoff turned to management, leading Juventus to the Uefa Cup and taking Italy to within a whisker of victory at Euro 2000, only for France to overturn a 1-0 deficit with seconds remaining, a result that prompted his resignation a few days later. Still, not bad for a goalie.

Marseilles cheated to win the cl and i am fairly sure had the trophy taken off them.

 

 

[lenny3k 662]

Can I ask, and I will give you 2 in Jock Wallace and Dino Zoff, how many goalkeepers have made good managers?

 

Walter Zenga and Bruce Arena were both goalkeepers I believe. Also, the current Wolves manager Nuno was a GK and he's a fairly decent manager, has a good reputation anyway, but it is indeed very rare they make managers... I believe most go on to be coaches, if they stay in the game at all

[Rousseau 10,640]

Can I ask, and I will give you 2 in Jock Wallace and Dino Zoff, how many goalkeepers have made good managers?

 

"Why are goalkeepers so rarely effective managers? Which ex-keeper has the best management record ever?" muses Mike Shearing.

 

It's partly a numbers game. With ten outfield players to every keeper, there's a far smaller pool of potential candidates. It's also worth bearing in mind that keepers tend to have longer playing careers. In England alone, John Burridge, Steve Ogrizovic, Neville Southall and Dave Beasant have all made top-flight appearances after the age of 40.

 

The most successful keeper-manager ever is surely the late Raymond Goethals. Born in Brussels in 1921, Goethals enjoyed a modest playing career between the sticks for minor Belgian clubs Daring and Racing de Bruxelles. However, as Xavier Lizin points out, there is nothing modest about his coaching CV. In 1993, Goethals guided Marseilles to victory in the Champions League final against a Milan side that included Marco van Basten, Franco Baresi and Frank Rijkaard.

 

It was the crowning moment of Goethal's managerial career. As coach of Belgium, he had led his country to the 1970 World Cup n Mexico, the first time they had qualified for 16 years, and also to a third-place finish in the 1972 European Championships. He reached two consecutive European Cup Winners' Cup finals with Anderlecht, winning the trophy in 1978, and also tasted domestic league and cup success with Standard Liege. His career as Marseilles manager, meanwhile, included three successive league titles and, two years before the historic win over Milan, a European Cup final defeat to Red Star Belgrade.

 

A respectful nod also goes to former United States manager Bruce Arena. While Arena's greatest claim to fame as a player is a solitary appearance in the US goal for a 2-0 loss to Israel in 1973, his accomplishments as a coach are considerable. His DC United side not only won the first two MLS championships and the 1998 CONCACAF Champions Cup but beat Brazilian side Vasco da Gama over two legs to win the Interamerican Cup. In 2002 Arena also led America to the last eight of the World Cup while, in April 2006, the US achieved a best-ever Fifa world ranking of fourth.

 

Dino Zoff is worth a mention too. After captaining Italy to the 1982 World Cup, aged 40, Zoff turned to management, leading Juventus to the Uefa Cup and taking Italy to within a whisker of victory at Euro 2000, only for France to overturn a 1-0 deficit with seconds remaining, a result that prompted his resignation a few days later. Still, not bad for a goalie.

 

Haven't we been over this? There are a few good managers that were 'keepers, excluding the few that you mention: Lopetagui, Blackwell, Adkins, Beasant, Preud'homme, Slutsy, Nuno Santo, and Caixinha (maybe too early to say if he will be good...). I'm amused that you keep bringing up this argument to imply/prove that Caixinha is/will be a poor manager. Of course there are going to be fewer former goalkeepers as managers because, as you quoted from the Guardian, there is a smaller pool of candidates.

 

What about those managers that didn't play football at all? Andre Villas-Boas, Sacchi, Carlos Alberto Parreira, Avram Grant, Brian Kerr, and our very own Bill Struth. Even Wenger and Mourinho had very little success as players, if you can even call it a career. A player's playing career, and less so his position, has very little bearing on whether they will be a good manager or not.

Edited July 13, 2017 by Rousseau

[Gaffer 1,665]

Human beings are funny. We make a snap decision, based on not very much info at all, and then spend the rest of the time trying to prove that decision was correct. The views on PC are polarised. Many had written him off before he joined and will now look to every negative angle to support their case. Equally however, there are others who hope he turns out to be the answer, and look to every positive angle to cling on to the hope. Both views have a significant amount of evidence, so which one is correct?

 

Either way, none of us really know how he will perform and that's perhaps the lesson here. He deserves his chance to prove his worth. I'd hope that we are all in agreement that we hope he turns out to be a success. Is that the case though? It doesn't feel like it sometimes.

[pete 2,499]

Human beings are funny. We make a snap decision, based on not very much info at all, and then spend the rest of the time trying to prove that decision was correct. The views on PC are polarised. Many had written him off before he joined and will now look to every negative angle to support their case. Equally however, there are others who hope he turns out to be the answer, and look to every positive angle to cling on to the hope. Both views have a significant amount of evidence, so which one is correct?

 

Either way, none of us really know how he will perform and that's perhaps the lesson here. He deserves his chance to prove his worth. I'd hope that we are all in agreement that we hope he turns out to be a success. Is that the case though? It doesn't feel like it sometimes.

 

Three of the worst results in Rangers history in 4 months. He should be long gone. Davy White went for far less.

[stewarty 2,027]

Human beings are funny. We make a snap decision, based on not very much info at all, and then spend the rest of the time trying to prove that decision was correct. The views on PC are polarised. Many had written him off before he joined and will now look to every negative angle to support their case. Equally however, there are others who hope he turns out to be the answer, and look to every positive angle to cling on to the hope. Both views have a significant amount of evidence, so which one is correct?

 

Either way, none of us really know how he will perform and that's perhaps the lesson here. He deserves his chance to prove his worth. I'd hope that we are all in agreement that we hope he turns out to be a success. Is that the case though? It doesn't feel like it sometimes.

 

Spot on. If anything, I'm guilty of something in between as well. I'll give someone the benefit of the doubt when perhaps I ought to be slightly more sceptical - both in terms of initial impressions and making allowances for poor performance.

[Uilleam 5,948]

The Pedrophobes are in a win-win situation, largely:

if he is successful, they are happy;

if he is unsuccessful, they can tell us, "We told you so", and have the satisfaction of being 'right' in the 1st place.

[der Berliner 3,747]

Three of the worst results in Rangers history in 4 months. He should be long gone. Davy White went for far less.

 

Yeah, results-driven mentality. The manager's wheel would go faster than a Gatling gun ...

 

Alas, we are not in Spain and Italy.

[pete 2,499]

The Pedrophobes are in a win-win situation, largely:

if he is successful, they are happy;

if he is unsuccessful, they can tell us, "We told you so", and have the satisfaction of being 'right' in the 1st place.

 

You can say that about anything that is total crap. Yes, but it is Warburton's team! Warburton put Celtic out the cup with this team and had us sitting in second position until the wheels fell off the wagon. He didn't break 3 Rangers record's worst results in 4 months Yes I will be happy if he has success but I would prefer that a real manager was brought in now as my expectations of success happening under Pedro are nil and void. I don't expect I will ever be a millionaire but I will be very happy if I do and shout I knew it would happen one day.

[der Berliner 3,747]

You can say that about anything that is total crap. Yes, but it is Warburton's team! Warburton put Celtic out the cup with this team and had us sitting in second position until the wheels fell off the wagon. He didn't break 3 Rangers record's worst results in 4 months Yes I will be happy if he has success but I would prefer that a real manager was brought in now as my expectations of success happening under Pedro are nil and void. I don't expect I will ever be a millionaire but I will be very happy if I do and shout I knew it would happen one day.

 

Again, that's just looking at results and not the mess PC found himself in when taking over. It was MW's team that played utter crap and rather sub-standard (as people will testify, you included) at the time. On top of that, we had to field one of the youngest teams against the Yahoos, mainly due to injuries (and promptly the chap who had just turned 18 gave away an early penalty), a Yahoos team that was flying in the league and high on confidence. It was a recipe for disaster and it came to pass. Same went for the home defeat against Aberdeen. Yep, PC chose the players from what he had available. But that ain't his side for the upcoming season. And yes, we can go throught the Progres debacle again ... yet would end up with a same pointless spiral of people pointing at the result, standard of Rangers and Progres, what we should do to them and whatnot. At the end of the day it happened - in pre-season - and we are truly ashamed of it all. End of story though. Against Motherwell, I do reckon that only 3 or 4 players max of the sides who faced Progres will be in the starting line up. On that I - for one - will judge PC, not the inheritance of MW.