No quality, no bottle, no Progrès - Should the manager be sacked?

[pete 2,499]

Again, that's just looking at results and not the mess PC found himself in when taking over. It was MW's team that played utter crap and rather sub-standard (as people will testify, you included) at the time. On top of that, we had to field one of the youngest teams against the Yahoos, mainly due to injuries (and promptly the chap who had just turned 18 gave away an early penalty), a Yahoos team that was flying in the league and high on confidence. It was a recipe for disaster and it came to pass. Same went for the home defeat against Aberdeen. Yep, PC chose the players from what he had available. But that ain't his side for the upcoming season. And yes, we can go throught the Progres debacle again ... yet would end up with a same pointless spiral of people pointing at the result, standard of Rangers and Progres, what we should do to them and whatnot. At the end of the day it happened - in pre-season - and we are truly ashamed of it all. End of story though. Against Motherwell, I do reckon that only 3 or 4 players max of the sides who faced Progres will be in the starting line up. On that I - for one - will judge PC, not the inheritance of MW.

 

It is not just looking at the result it is also looking at the tactics and team shape our manager sent out against the tims and against Prógres. They were all wrong. It is okay to say I got it wrong after the fact but we need a manager who gets it right before the fact. Pedro has set up the team wrong on numerous occasions and looks lost when he sees it is not working.

Edited July 13, 2017 by pete

[JohnMc 2,754]

What I see is a man who is full of determination and passion, and that's been missing for some time. I like the attitude he has towards discipline and again I strongly believe that's required to turn things around. However, I also know that it takes time to turns things around as much as we need.

 

I've no specific insight into why the board's relationship with Warburton soured, it couldn't have been results because if it was PC would be gone by now, so it was something else or an accumulation of things. When Warburton joined he brought discipline, passion and determination, more importantly he brought organisation. Everyone knew what they were supposed to be doing. Warburton took a stuttering disjointed side, that had been humiliated by Motherwell in the play-off, and had them playing some of the finest football I've ever seen Rangers play within a couple of months. So, my question, how come it takes PC considerably longer to take a better squad than Warburton inherited into a cohesive, united winning side?

 

You're right that he had an average cv, but already he has brought in some quality players. I have seen Alves and Pena play a few times and I rate both very highly. Given that he's brought players in of that quality, I have confidence in his ability to pick far better players than Warburton did.

 

I doubt either would have joined us if PC and his backroom side hadn't been with us. On paper they look like a step up, let's see how they settle and perform though.

 

I was optimistic after the first half of the home leg against Progres. Some of the play was excellent. That's the type of football I'd love to watch this season, albeit I'd want us to score more goals with so many chances. For various reasons (I've posted previously) the team then didn't perform in the next three halves we played against them, although I could see what the team was trying to do. I'm excited to see if he can build a consistent level of performance. If he can, we will have a brilliant season (notwithstanding the fact we're now out of Europe).

 

This is where I strongly disagree. We were playing a terrible side, genuinely the worst side we've ever drawn in Europe, and by your estimation we performed in one quarter of the tie. I saw no excellent play, I saw a team unsure of what they were doing and how they were meant to be playing. I saw a Progres side grow in confidence as the ineptitude of their opponents dawned on them and I saw a complete lack of tactical awareness, fight, passion and the kind of nous full-time professional players usually display when facing inferior opposition. For me it was a further demonstration of the managers inability to inspire a team and learn from his mistakes. Having got the measure of Progres in the first leg we should have ran out comfortable winners in the second, we knew how they played, we could see their strengths and their weaknesses.

 

PC has also created a defensive system that can work and that's something we sadly missed last season. I always felt we were going to lose goals last season. I don't get that feeling now. The one tactical thing I'm not happy with however is his use of Miller in a wide position (or in the advanced midfield role). Miller does not have the ability, touch, or discipline to play there to maintain width, and although I can appreciate that PC rates Miller's workrate, I really hope this is temporary until we can get Pena, Dalcio or Candeias fully functioning.

 

Well that defensive system was looking pretty poor last week and I'd hate to see what a half decent side do it. It's bizarre, because I look at this side and I can't see how we'll score goals or how we'll stop a decent side scoring. Miller's positioning is the least of our problems.

 

Finally, what I also like is his willingness to give the younger players their chance. Even if it means losing more games, I'd rather we continue to do that for the longer term good of the club.

 

An interesting point. If, and I'm not convinced he does favour youth, but if that turns out to be his style then he'll get fired. The Rangers support simply won't tolerate losing many games, young players or not, if someone at the club hasn't explained the reality of being Rangers manager to PC then all our conversations are moot.

 

 

PC may turn out to be unable to help in our next stage of development from obscurity to champions. If he is unsuccessful, I'd like to reach that conclusion after giving him sufficient time and support to give it a real go. I'm willing to give him that. I'd hope we all agree on that. Perhaps the one thing we disagree on is what constitutes a reasonable length of time. For me, he's only just got his team almost together, albeit the two key players haven't played yet. Surely he deserves the chance to be judged after he has his first team settled. The part that's frustrated me is that many people have called for his head before he arrived. Many others have reacted hysterically after going out of Europe. Although I understand the disappointment (I feel it too), I think it's fair to acknowledge the circumstances and lack of preparation time, and the fact he's not been able to play his first eleven yet.

 

I'm staggered at the excuses that have been made for the defeat. How can you overlook the fact he has well paid, experienced players at his disposal? There's been a lot of re-writing of the Warburton era, our three best performances last season were Celtic at Parkhead under Murty and Aberdeen and Hearts at Ibrox under Warburton. We showed fight, grit, determination and periods of skill and tactical awareness. Those are the players PC inherited. Why has be unable to mould them into something resembling a side capable of beating part-timers from Luxembourg? Where was the 'bounce' that every manager achieves when he takes over a side that's been stuttering? The squad he took over was capable of beating Aberdeen at home, drawing with Celtic away and beating our poorest ever opponents in Europe. Yet we didn't and the blame for that must lie squarely with our manager.

 

I'd be willing to give him all the time he needs if there was even a semblance of a footballing style to the side, if it was clear what his sides were trying to do on the pitch, and if we were showing improvement. I've seen none of those things. So fine, perhaps when Dorrans, Alves and the rest are fit and in the team we'll be better, we certainly should be, but all that's happened is we've put better players into our team, that doesn't demonstrate we've got a manager capable of inspiring performances, organising teams depending on opponents, seeing weaknesses in the opposition and capable of creating a side better than the sum of it's parts. That last point is important because that's what we're going to need to do to overhaul Celtic. They have more money and better players than us, so we need an alchemist and I've sen nothing from PC to suggest he's that.

 

We all want what's best for the club. I think what's best for the club is for us to unite behind the manager and do what we are here to do - support the club. If things don't work out, we have a board and a DoF that is there to make those decisions. The more support we have for the manager and players, the more likely they are to succeed. I don't think it helps to have any more unnecessary pressure on them as they find their feet. Hopefully that explains my optimism and support for the manager and team.

 

I'm sorry, when I read your words I hear Andrea Leadsom berating the interviewer for a lack of patriotism for questioning why she was making such a horlicks of Brexit. My loyalty to Rangers is unquestioning, my loyalty to any one individual at the club is not. I'm not normally a reactive or negative person, but most of what you've written is emotional, not factual. We might get better when better players are available, but this belief that PC is a capable manager able to deliver what Rangers need in even the medium term is sadly lacking from any analysis I've read of him.

Edited July 13, 2017 by JohnMc

[Uilleam 5,948]

You can say that about anything that is total crap. Yes, but it is Warburton's team! Warburton put Celtic out the cup with this team and had us sitting in second position until the wheels fell off the wagon. He didn't break 3 Rangers record's worst results in 4 months Yes I will be happy if he has success but I would prefer that a real manager was brought in now as my expectations of success happening under Pedro are nil and void. I don't expect I will ever be a millionaire but I will be very happy if I do and shout I knew it would happen one day.

 

You can have your cake and eat it too, unlike, say, Boris Johnson.

[craig 5,199]

Marseilles cheated to win the cl and i am fairly sure had the trophy taken off them.

 

That was what I thought too but apparently it is incorrect.

 

They didn't cheat to win the CL (technically at least). They bribed Valenciennes so that they could win the French Ligue title earlier, which allowed them to concentrate on the CL final and rest players beforehand. They were stripped of the French Ligue title but not the CL. The reason being that the game they fixed wasn't a CL game.

[the gunslinger 3,366]

That was what I thought too but apparently it is incorrect.

 

They didn't cheat to win the CL (technically at least). They bribed Valenciennes so that they could win the French Ligue title earlier, which allowed them to concentrate on the CL final and rest players beforehand. They were stripped of the French Ligue title but not the CL. The reason being that the game they fixed wasn't a CL game.

Perhaps officially. They were up to all sorts though. Envelopes burried in referees guardens stuffed with cash. Food poisoning for cska players after eating in tapies restaurant

 

 

[craig 5,199]

Three of the worst results in Rangers history in 4 months. He should be long gone. Davy White went for far less.

 

Losing at home to Aberdeen is nowhere near "one of our worst results" - that is a myth exacerbated by the fact we hadn't lost at home to Aberdeen in 26 years.

 

Progres & Celtic, I would agree though.

[craig 5,199]

Spot on. If anything, I'm guilty of something in between as well. I'll give someone the benefit of the doubt when perhaps I ought to be slightly more sceptical - both in terms of initial impressions and making allowances for poor performance.

 

Yep, I am usually a fence sitter too. Jees, I was one of the last off the Ally train so I can sit on a fence and get splinters for a long time.

 

I just don't think that 4 months in a job, where 3 of those months you were using someone else's players - and even the month with your own players, you haven't been able to field your biggest signings.... is long enough to judge. That said, their are definitely concerning signs that he won't be the answer. But this early into the job is too early, IMHO.

[craig 5,199]

You can say that about anything that is total crap. Yes, but it is Warburton's team! Warburton put Celtic out the cup with this team and had us sitting in second position until the wheels fell off the wagon. He didn't break 3 Rangers record's worst results in 4 months Yes I will be happy if he has success but I would prefer that a real manager was brought in now as my expectations of success happening under Pedro are nil and void. I don't expect I will ever be a millionaire but I will be very happy if I do and shout I knew it would happen one day.

 

Warburton also lost 5-1 at the Piggery with that team.

 

You are right, you can prove anything you want to prove with statistics.

[craig 5,199]

Perhaps officially. They were up to all sorts though. Envelopes burried in referees guardens stuffed with cash. Food poisoning for cska players after eating in tapies restaurant

 

Doesn't matter though GS. Your original assertion was they had the CL stripped. They didn't.

 

Should they have had ? Quite possibly and I am agree with you that they were up to all sorts. But they didn't have the CL stripped, even if they should have had.

[stewarty 2,027]

Yep, I am usually a fence sitter too. Jees, I was one of the last off the Ally train so I can sit on a fence and get splinters for a long time.

 

I just don't think that 4 months in a job, where 3 of those months you were using someone else's players - and even the month with your own players, you haven't been able to field your biggest signings.... is long enough to judge. That said, their are definitely concerning signs that he won't be the answer. But this early into the job is too early, IMHO.

 

Agreed.

 

But because of some of the results in his short tenure, he's lost the goodwill that goes with most new managers and wont be afforded much more time. He needs immediate results.