Seven ways I disagree with Warburton's footballing philosophy

[BrahimHemdani 1]

Would you throw a youth player into a team that's struggling , away to Hearts , of course you wouldn't, most of our youths are far far far too young

 

I would have put Jordan Thompson in instead of Crooks if he had not been on loan; and I would be playing Ryan Hardie if he wasn't on loan.

[craig 5,199]

Are there players you feel he's ignoring in this bracket?

 

And THAT is the pertinent question.

 

You cant blame a manager for not bringing youth into his 1st team if there are none ready for the step-up. You need to look at who is/was running the Academy to look for the blame/responsibility.

 

I don't think there is much doubt that Warburton made McKay a better player than he ever was under Ally - but some will perhaps disagree.

[RANGERRAB 3,396]

If McCoist had given youth a chance when we were in the lower divisions, chances are we would be in much better shape now.

 

I disagreed with McCoist on most matters but he was correct regards the youths. They are/were simply not good enough for where we want to be.

[craig 5,199]

Warburton may be doing absolute wonders with the youth system, but so far we've had no significant promotions to the first team whatsoever (which is unusual even by maligned manager's standards) and our youth teams are winning nothing.

It's easy to say give time, but what if it's all bullshit? Andy Roxburgh boasted about all the stuff he'd changed at grass roots and youth levels which would pay dividends in the future with a much stronger team - what happened there?

 

I'm not sure if I even agree with Warburton's philosophy of not caring whether the youths win games or not. It sounds kind of tempting as you are taking the pressure of and concentrating on technique and playing against better players, but part or me wonders about how you make a winner out of someone so used to losing? How do you motivate them? When do they have fun and enjoy the game? Also how do they feel when they've been battered around the pitch by guys a few years older for game after game?

 

A lot of questions there.

 

What we need is proof that it works otherwise it's just an experiment that could go either way.

 

This shows your lack of understanding of the philosophy in the youth department. I suggest you look up some previous pressers and statements from Craig Mulholland.

 

The philosophy is one of development which means that results are secondary. Our U20's is often almost full of U17's because the Club want to promote players who are ready for the next challenge rather than have them staying within their own age group. Indeed, we were AFAIK, the first club in Scotland to implement "bio-banding".

 

In fact, it is this "youths winning nothing" mentality which saw Jim Sinclair operate a "win at all costs" mentality at the U20 (development league level) - and is much of the reason that Warburton now has very little, if anything, to call upon from the youth Academy.

[craig 5,199]

I see I was wrong about him being captain of the U21s and he actually played for the U19s. My bad. I apologise, my memory is not perfect.

 

I don't think anything I said was too off the mark for the point I was making, and certainly not malicious.

 

For some people: please note me admitting I'm wrong, and apologising.

 

Noted and accepted

 

Doesn't it make you feel somewhat relieved ?

[craig 5,199]

As you agree with me in first ones, it's not surprising I agree with what you said.

 

I also agree that some are similar but to me they are still distinct. I'm trying to break it down into its components.

 

 

 

Fair enough - we all have our opinions. I thought he went over the top on mild and valid criticism, after saying it's all about opinions, defended his own record in a spurious and cringe-worthy way, and then got stuffed by Hearts. Poor show. It was easy to just ignore. But that's just my view.

 

He can protect players without jumping down the throat of every critic and the player's response should be to show the critic is wrong by how he plays on the pitch. Funnily enough, the guy he was defending the most didn't get a start...

 

 

 

This is a scenario I'm willing to give some possibility to, and I've mentioned that above. However, no matter how bad Sinclair and his methods were, there's even recently been McKay and Lewis - and they are the most successful, like you say, you don't know till you try.

 

I don't think this excuses him for not trying the likes of Burt even for the last 10 minutes when we're 3-0 up (although I admit that doesn't happen much these days), or in the league part of the League Cup, and last season after we had already won the league. Maybe he was keeping the first team match fit for the final - but that obviously didn't work.

 

I can't see the harm, and I've been consistent in saying we should be blooding one to three players a season - which I've been derided for by some as too few. I see a lack of consistency from those who were saying we should be flooding the team with youngsters, as well as others who have attacked the likes of... let's choose Walter , for not giving youth enough of a chance.

 

Youth deserves a chance, but only if it is ready. We cant only look at Warburton's experiences here in terms of developing youth though - look at what he did with Andre Gray for example - he DOES have a history of youth development, just not at Rangers.

 

The issue at Rangers is that we had absolutely the wrong person heading up the Academy. Lewis McLeod was a success in spite of Sinclair, not because of him. And I cant give you McKay in totality - he was developed at Kilmarnock and was brought to us with a view to a swift promotion to the senior team - so some of the credit goes to Killie and some to us, but again I suspect he became a success in spite of Sinclair, not because of him.

 

We will never know if Ally gave Lewis and McKay a chance because he had little other choice - we simply don't know. What we do know is that he still went out and brought in players like Kevin Kyle

[calscot 0]

You didn't always think that way Cal, even when the evidence was in front of you.

 

I don't say that as a slight, because I defended Ally till it was impossible to continue to do so. The difference is that I admit it.

 

You seem to be trying revisionism again.

 

I agree I didn't always think that way - that would be called prejudice. I'm not that kind of person and happy to admit that.

 

I'm not sure why you want to derail the thread with this, but I'll bite. I apologise to those who don't want to be distracted in the thread - please ignore.

 

I started off thinking he was doing ok, and at a real 9 points ahead it was looking quite good. I was disappointed with the Europe stuff, but when you look at the last match thread about blaming the players, a couple of the Euro games were prime candidates. However, there are arguments about a shit preseason etc, but let's not go there.

 

For me, I didn't blame him so much for the collapse as others as I did the off field problems that started to emerge. Again a lot of people were inconsistent and unjustified here - losing a 15 point lead was unforgivable they said. I give them the 9 but how can McCoist possibly be at fault for Celtic winning two games in hand against other teams?

 

As you can see there was already a meme going here. So it's not surprising that I defended McCoist against nonsense like that. One retracted and said 9 points was unforgivable. Now this was against a side that had spent more money than us and correlated with off-field uncertainty due to Whyte and also the BTC.

 

Fast forward a bunch of years and we have a manager with a solid board, no BTC, a budget factors larger than the nears opposition losing an 8 point lead, with no off field mitigation, and that being somehow forgivable. Can you see the inconsistency here?

 

McCoist is obviously a target, and I could see that.

 

So I argued that it's better to have a 9 point lead an lose it than be miles behind - how prophetic was that?

 

We then went into administration, lost three games in a row IIRC and received a 10 point penalty.

 

Now how can we judge a manager in those circumstances. We still finished a comfortable second and beat Celtic in a game - but McCoists card was marked and he was vilified like the troll above.

 

I argued that we didn't know if he was any good without all the strife and that it could have been worse.

 

It was arguing that in the second half of the season I admitted that while we didn't know if McCoist was a winner in normal times, we knew he was unable to stop the team from collapsing due to the external pressures and while the league table was almost irrelevant and he had done well before the implosion, the cup results were very poor.

 

I said that he wasn't the kind of manager to motivate players despite the off-field stuff and that's the kind of manager we needed, therefore he wasn't right for us.

 

We all know the story, the heartache over whether we could get a newco, and a CVA, the eventual takeover by dodgy characters, the TUPE, the players walking away, the demotion, the trophy grab, the illegal transfer embargo. (And it is to be remembered that the story goes that he saved our trophies, and he also rallies the fans).

 

Again it's impossible to judge a manager under those circumstances. Half the players were youths, and we started badly. But we rallied and won the league as expected.

 

At that time my mantra was while he wasn't outstanding, he was just getting passable enough results, not to be sacked by the board - and as things were improving, we didn't know what his potential was. So by now I was being vilified for the temerity of not agreeing he was obviously the worst manager ever, and all the circumstances were "excuses".

 

Now compare and contrast with today... Give him time, there's this trivial excuse and that one...

 

So this continued with McCoist hanging in there with his unbeaten league season despite another transfer embargo and no money to spend on fees which meant dumpster diving and being desperate for time, which made decent choices and bargains impossible.

 

It was here where I had to emphasise that I wasn't "lauding" McCoist, I was just fending off the extreme vilification of him which I think by now you can see was over the top. By now, I'd seen him do a job which wasn't particularly good but not particularly bad in extreme circumstances and so labelled him for ever after as, "mediocre" as far as I could tell.

 

Ever since, I've been vilified myself and incessantly accused of thinking he was great despite me consistently and repeatedly saying he was mediocre but that a lot of the demonisation was just ludicrous - like being unbeaten but "sussed" by the managers" or all the players being ruined by him despite the likes of McLeod and McKay. Again, C&C today.

 

So maybe you can see why I didn't think much of that was particularly intelligent - there was very little rational debate about it, it was a mob mentality. Ever since I've been constantly attacked about it, including by two posters in this thread.

 

Since then I've been pretty consistent, only changing my opinion to "not good" as some seemed to think that saying "mediocre" meant "good".

 

He probably went down another notch in my estimation for not competing with Hearts, but that was again, coinciding with horrendous off field problems and I showed a graph which had a massive downward spike in form at the time of Llambias taking control - and stories of the worst atmosphere ever at Ibrox. Yet again, that was just "excuses", which compare with the massive dip in form of Warburton with the excuse being "we won the league" even though we had a cup final to come, where the players were totally switched off for the season.

 

So McCoist resigned, I then warned that as McCoist didn't seem to be the worst, the results could easily get worse rather than better. I was told that was impossible, nobody could be worse. And there you go.

 

After that I've said for people to be careful in their estimation of McCoist as Warburton would have to be judged in comparison. I was assured the results would blow McCoist's out of the water, but in reality they've not been any better. I know it's hard to compare but if you can't compare you can't say Ally is shit - as you don't know how another manager would have fared in the exact same circumstances.

 

The funny thing is that my estimation dropped due to Hearts, but Warburton couldn't match Hearts in an easier league and now can't match them in the same league, despite a far bigger budget and similar circumstances - except for being a year behind.

 

So I think my analysis has been consistent and fair all the way, the really weird thing is the total lack of respect I've had for that view and the bullshit I constantly have to deal with.

 

Not one of my detractors is the slightest bit consistent in the analysis of Warburton, so I guess it's whether you like the manager or not - or maybe the style of football, but as I've been pointing out Warburton doesn't even have that now - and like I say in this post, I think his philosophy is flawed. It reminds me of Yogi - play the ball on the ground and forget the results.

 

I've made a lot of points, warnings and predictions that came quite true and totally contradicted a large bunch of people on here. It's just made them angrier with me. So I'm probably a lot more combative now and have less patience for nonsense.

 

All this is verifiable in the archives. And if you can't remember me repeating his averageness, hundreds of times, then to quote the Gunslinger, you must be mad.

[calscot 0]

BTW Craig, if you say TLDR then I won't be impressed, you asked for it, and it took a lot of typing!

[the gunslinger 3,366]

Again with the one line, unsubstantiated insult. Can the people who think I'M insulting please see the pattern here???

 

I'm doing my best to treat your posts with respect, I think I've answered you quite well even if you don't agree with my opinions. But some things are just facts.

 

Can you tell me which bit you disagree with for some more normal type of discussion?

 

I can't swear I've given true facts here but that is how I recall the information I have read online and watched the team on TV with my own eyes.

 

I've checked Wikipedia - which I agree may not be the most reliable source, but is seen by enough footie fans to correct most of the glaring errors and has plenty of references.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barrie_McKay

 

"McKay was then signed by Rangers in the summer of 2011. He played regularly in their under-19 side at the age of 16 and ended the season as top goalscorer."

 

"McKay made his first-team debut for Rangers on 13 May 2012, in a 4–0 win against St Johnstone.^[9] On 11 August 2012, he scored Rangers first goal in the club's inaugural game in the Third Division"

 

"On 27 December 2013, he joined Greenock Morton on a month's loan.^[17] As there were no SPFL U20 fixtures until January, this was to give him some much needed game time; he will be available for five games whilst at Cappielow.^[18] His loan was extended until the end of the season."

 

"McKay signed for Scottish Championship club Raith Rovers on 1 September 2014, agreeing a loan move until 1 January 2015."

 

[TABLE=class: wikitable]

[TR]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Club[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Season[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 3, align: center]League[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center]National Cup[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center]League Cup[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center]Other[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, colspan: 2, align: center]Total[/TH]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Division[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Apps[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Goals[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Apps[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Goals[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Apps[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Goals[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Apps[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Goals[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Apps[/TH]

[TH=bgcolor: #F2F2F2, align: center]Goals[/TH]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]Rangers[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]2011–12[/TD]

[TD]Scottish Premier League[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]2012–13[/TD]

[TD]Scottish Third Division[/TD]

[TD]31[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]3[/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]

[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]3^[a][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]41[/TD]

[TD]4[/TD]

[/TR]

[TR]

[TD]2013–14[/TD]

[TD]Scottish League One[/TD]

[TD]2[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]0[/TD]

[TD]1^[a][/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[TD]4[/TD]

[TD]1[/TD]

[/TR]

[/TABLE]

So your contention is mccoist signed him and made him u21 captain.

 

 

[calscot 0]

Noted and accepted

 

Doesn't it make you feel somewhat relieved ?

 

I do it every time... It would be nice if others did to...