calscot 0 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Post 22 Originally Posted by limeburner you cant get basic facts right,when you dont you blame other people for"making things up". FFs. I'm sorry, you're just too ignorant about Rangers for me to bother to debate with. When you deny the facts and say they are made up, that shows ignorance of the subject, and makes it impossible to debate with you. Instead of getting offended once again (there's a pattern here) you should have showed your knowledge. Again show don't tell. You seem to be unable to rationalise when some of your viewpoints which don't seem to be based on reality are questioned. When debating, we need to at least have a grasp of the facts instead of getting all hot and bothered when they are pointed out to you. When aggressively, insultingly and repeatedly accuse me of making up indisputable facts then yeah, it's very difficult to have respect for their knowledge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunslinger 3,366 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 In season 2011/12, McCoist spent 3,03m in transfers, while we sold people for 6,41m (a large chunk of which was Jela). http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/glasgow-rangers/transfers/verein/124/saison_id/2011/pos//detailpos//w_s//plus/0 Of course, you will add wages and all, but people of the calibre of Bocanegra, Wallace and Jela don't come to Scotland because of the wheather. The season thereafter, we spenta whopping 734k on Templeton, full stop. We sold players for 1,22m ... and nigh the entire first team squad of 2011/12 waved good-bye. http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rangers-fc/transfers/verein/124/plus/0?saison_id=2012&pos=&detailpos=&w_s= The season thereafter, we spent 0 in transfer fees, and received 0 in transfer fees. http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/rangers-fc/transfers/verein/124/plus/0?saison_id=2013&pos=&detailpos=&w_s= The season thereafter, we spent 0 in transfer fees, and received 959k for Lewis Macleod. Where and when did McCoist spent and waste millions we did not have? IMHO, there is no need to adore him for his time as a manager. Result-wise, opinions can be split. Football-wise we played some rather mediocre fare against low-key opposition. The whole poisonous background did not help matters on the pitch either. I for one wouldn't go out of my skin to demonize his managerial spell though. It wasn't great, but that's it. And hundreds of managers have failed much worse under far easier circumstances ... and none that I can think of had managed better than McCoist under similar circumstances. And as you say tens of millions in wages. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
the gunslinger 3,366 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Reply to Limeburner Post 21 Originally Posted by limeburner We had to get rid of him to have a chance of finishing third.Carry on though,im enjoying youre re-writing of history. Where did I say you weren't a Rangers fan? I said you didn't follow the team, as in you don't follow what's going on. This is in response to you saying I rewrote history for saying McCoist didn't finish 3rd as he resigned while in second place. Something you deny which is actually a fact about Rangers. Then also in your reply you said, "We had to get rid of him to have a chance of finishing third." when in actual fact he resigned... Couple that with a lack of acknowledgement of the boardroom turmoil and fans boycott and saying I was rewriting history when pointing out facts and it certainly looks like you didn't follow what's going on. Instead of getting so offended at a reasonable assumption to of your denial of the facts, maybe you should have demonstrated your knowledge of what went on at Rangers. As they say, show don't tell. Originally Posted by limeburner We had to get rid of him to have a chance of finishing third.Carry on though,im enjoying youre re-writing of history. I have to wonder if you follow the team. Did you see us under super? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
limeburner 0 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I have to wonder if you follow the team. Did you see us under super? Hes been up all night waiting for me to log in.Superb!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
der Berliner 3,747 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 And as you say tens of millions in wages. Which you can sure verify? Of course, your remark begs the questions whom he should have signed in his first - ill-fated season - and for how much money and wages. Back then he was challenging for CL glory and the triple. Hindsight is such a glorious tool to wield, isn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
der Berliner 3,747 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Hes been up all night waiting for me to log in.Superb!! Why the need to drag it down to a personal level that does not befit this board? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
limeburner 0 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Why the need to drag it down to a personal level that does not befit this board? Have you asked the same of others?I think you need to be seen to be even handed no? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
limeburner 0 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Bye the way,i was finished with this last night,hence my comment. FWIW,im still finished with it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Not even sure how your response relates to the piece of my post that you are quoting here. Much of the failures of that season can be placed upon McCoist, that much is beyond doubt. Similarly, much of the issues can be placed with the Board too, no argument from me there. What is it with all this "memes" nonsense ? The meme is that everything McCoist did is the worst and he is to blame for everything. Celtic have a similar meme for Rangers. People seem to be following the meme instead of reality and so twist everything to be all McCoists fault without a reasonable explanation. The "McCoist finished 3rd and didn't get promoted" is an obvious example. The meme is so strong that when I just defend reality, you even seem to think I think McCoist is a good manager, when I have repeated many, many times, that I don't think he's any good. The best I've said about McCoist is that his results were about passable enough to avoid the sack under the circumstances he was managing in. The fact he wasn't sacked kind of agrees with me there. The point here is that the two factors I think I have clearly shown are the most significant in finishing 3rd are the machinations of the board and all the related negative fall out of that including the fan boycott, and the presence of a Hearts team who had a fantastic season that MW couldn't emulate with more money and without the handicaps of the previous season. The fact that we achieved a new board and had had the most successful Scottish manager we could hope for, and still didn't get promoted, I think showed it was a lot more than McCoists failings. I agree he had failings but still contend that considering his record, the most likely scenario had the new board taken over instead of Llambias, would have finished second and would have had more than 50% chance of getting promoted through the playoffs. I also believe his form shows that the most likely scenario for this season would be at least narrowly winning the league. Now this doesn't mean he's a good manager, it's just that he's not crap enough to bugger it all up with the amount of money we spend on higher quality players in the other teams. After that, he's already shown he can highly compete with a more expensive Celtic team in the SPL despite having the likes of Whyte running the club. Again it doesn't show he's a good manager as he was up against Lennon but he showed he could at least do the minimum and not completely mess it all up. He wasn't good enough but there is no need to completely twist the truth to make out he was at fault for everything. Like I keep saying, if he's that bad then MW hasn't shown he much better results wise or in other ways like introducing teenagers from the academy to the team. At the point in time that Ally resigned we were so far behind that we would only have won the league had we went on an extended winning run coupled with a collapse by Hearts that would probably have been unprecedented. But, yes, it would be conjecture for any of us to suggest where we would have ended up had he stayed. That much is clear. I disagree about being as likely to win the league as finishing 3rd - but neither really matters that much. We can surmise all we like, it is still conjecture. I think for arguments sake, it's best to give the benefit of the doubt that all things being equal he would most likely have finished 2nd. I think that is by far the fairest way to judge him. Third place mostly came from the melt down after he left and having a manager who didn't want the job. He could still have finished third but I wouldn't have blamed him from that, history showed how bad Ashley's influence affected the dressing room. The thing I find strange is that the chairman of the club just publically acknowledged this, but those that want to demonise McCoist don't. Because of that, I don't think McCall was a worse manager than McCoist despite being a lot worse with pretty much the same team under a better board. On this point I completely disagree. You will NEVER, EVER convince me that the brand of football on display from McCoist's team in that last season was anything better than awful. I witnessed it with my own eyes and I don't need your perspective to force-feed me the notion that how poorly we played that season was exaggerated. I bought an online season ticket which cost me US$300 - and after a dozen games or so I got to the point where I didn't give a crap whether I got to see the game live or not - nothing to do with results, but all about watching the most dire of footballing styles I have witnessed in many a long year. Compare and contrast to this past season - whereby I bought the Puffin browser for iPhone just so I could see every game live on my iPhone if I wasn't in the house. So you can suggest the poor football was exaggerated - but for me, it was very, very real. What I witnessed was turgid. Again, that because I don't completely agree with you, you think I have a more opposing view. I didn't think McCoist's brand of football was good but I'm pretty sure you only remember the worst. We had plenty of watchable games under him and a smattering of quite good ones - especially in his first half season where he had the least board restrictions and off-field effects - and was allowed to have a reasonably good team. So like I say, I lot of that is exaggerated. The most illogical viewpoints I seen that after administration, newco, players leaving, effective demotion to the 4th tier, a transfer embargo and a bunch of ****s on the board, people said it was the worst Rangers team they had ever seen - and then fully blamed McCoist. That just shows the power of the meme. I don't think McCoist has a good brand of football but I do think it was made a lot worse by external circumstances and then judged in comparison to previous Rangers sides without the troubles. And the funny thing is - I've seen plenty of shit football by much better Rangers teams and managers. McCoist was not a good manager but was also dealt horrendous hand after horrendous hand, it's not surprising that with the massive pressure to still win every game, under those circumstances the attractiveness of the football suffered even more. If you believe we played decent football in Ally's last season then fair enough to you - we clearly have different expectations. And if that IS your belief then we will just have to agree to disagree, because I cannot be convinced it was anything other than dross. I don't know how to get through to you. My point is that the dreadfulness of it was exaggerated and external influences ignored, while expectations were obviously unrealistic. My expectations were tempered by the circumstances and I seen winning our way back to the top as more important. I don't think McCoist had the ability to do that and make the team play "nice" football. I also believe that we played better football than most of the other teams we played, albeit we had a higher standard of player, and not only that we usually won. So I tried to suppress feelings of a "spoiled" nature by realising that fans of far less successful clubs come out to support their team which does not produce champagne football and also lose a lot of the time. I knew things would change when we got back to the top so I had a bit of patience especially as I was well aware of the circumstances. What exactly am I fabricating ? I have said nothing about results, and I even acknowledged that when Ally resigned we were in 2nd place. I'm not fabricating anything. That was a general comment, but I do notice you often have no problem with others' fabrications. I have no problem with people thinking Ally was a decent manager - doesn't mean it is factual - and I am inclined to point it out when what they witness is very different from what I witnessed. The football we played under Ally was putrid. Who thinks he was a decent manager? You can think what you like about the style, but it does seem extreme to me when maybe as more of an optimist, I remember some ok stuff. Maybe you liked it better under McDowall, or maybe McCall, but the results were worse. I do remember a lot of the criticism was "fabricated" by some or at least highly exagerrated. "We can't string more than three passes together", "Every second ball is a long ball" etc. A lot of it didn't even slightly agree with what I was seeing. For me there WERE too many high and long balls and a lack of cohesion and long boring spells, but there were rays of sunshine in all of that. I think our current style can also be incredibly boring and tedious for long periods - especially against sides who park the bus and act like it's a cup final. The Ibrox crowd has been restless last season at times. So I do think you tend to remember what agrees with your current thinking which was why I think you couldn't acknowledge the increase in long balls against Celtic which to me was obvious. I think it messed with your opinion that we play the ball on the ground all the time - which to be fair we usually do. The irony is that you actually thought I was criticising the use of the long ball, when in truth, I was criticising the quality of it - which was horrendous, and subsequently criticising the fact that we don't practice it enough in other games. I've consistently advocated "judicious" use of the long ball. I find this post amusing actually Cal - because I was agreeing with much of what you had previously said. I'm still confused as to the tone towards me but that's fine, wont be the first or last time The tone (which I think you may be over-reading)? Some of it is frustration that you accuse me of things like conjecture etc but then use it yourself - especially when mine has more basis on what has gone before. All opinion is based on conjecture but I think I keep mine from being a bit wild and will always back it up with facts and figures. I would maybe be softer if you would apply the same kind of arguments to the extreme fabrications I've been referencing - which are so obvious but seem to be immune as they ultimately agree with your opinion. To be fair, for the first time in a long time, you have actually pointed out that I have made reasonable points to other posters. However, that happens less so when I am addressing your good self. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I have to wonder if you follow the team. Did you see us under super? I watched a fair amount of live games online, some on TV, and a lot of highlights, but I didn't see it through an "Everything McCoist does is shit" filter. That doesn't mean I thought it was good (generally it was't that good) but there were some ok spells and ok games. Did you see any of the games which were reasonably ok? I think the only game I got to see live was the Newcastle game and that was quite enjoyable, although I did have a few beers beforehand and was on holiday... However, I do follow quite closely what's going on, and don't make stuff up or deny what happened. My opinions are based on fact and take into account what is actually happening at the club - so my eyes are open when making judgements. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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