RST Write to Senior SNP Figures Over IRA Pub Visit

[boabie 230]

I seem to remember Auld deliberately breaking Davies Provan's anke with a coldly calculated stamp. Perhaps my memory is at fault as this could play no part in a 'fun persona'.

 

Lifted from a skidmark forum - " Older fans speak almost in embarrassment of the shocking tackle Bertie Auld perpetrated on Davie Provan (no, not that one!), which broke the Rangers full-back's leg back in the 1960s. Most fans rated Provan as a fair player, and would rather Bertie had "done" someone like Greig or McKinnon. "

 

I must admit I never ever heard anyone consider Ronnie McKinnon as anything else but a fair player.

[BrahimHemdani 1]

Lifted from a skidmark forum - " Older fans speak almost in embarrassment of the shocking tackle Bertie Auld perpetrated on Davie Provan (no, not that one!), which broke the Rangers full-back's leg back in the 1960s. Most fans rated Provan as a fair player, and would rather Bertie had "done" someone like Greig or McKinnon. "

 

I must admit I never ever heard anyone consider Ronnie McKinnon as anything else but a fair player.

 

Ronnie McKinnon was an excellent centre half, far better than his understudy Colin Jackson. He was a commanding header of the ball, good at interceptions and even better when tackling back towards his own goal. Greig, McKinnon, Baxter was an outstanding half back line.

[JohnMc 2,801]

There’s a number of issues here. Firstly to describe the Old Govan Arms as an “IRA Pub” is stretching. It’s a Celtic pub for sure and has been for decades but it’s a jump to describe it as an “IRA pub”. I imagine a number of its regulars might be sympathetic to Irish republicanism and I’m sure it’s not unheard of to hear songs that could be described as ‘rebel songs’ at times too. But does that make it an “IRA pub”? I think there’s a big difference between singing songs they associate with football and actively supporting ethnic cleansing and systematic, cold-blooded murder of people with who you disagree politically and organised gangsterism.

 

As for why was Humza Yousaf there I’d have thought the reason was fairly self-explanatory; he’s a politician. He’s standing locally against a well known and well established incumbent. On top of that he’s a posh, privately educated, Muslim man trying to get elected in one of the poorest, most deprived constituencies in the country. So let’s be honest his advisors have recognised a number of voters will struggle to relate to him. So photo ops in pubs will be engineered. The fact that it’s a well known ‘Celtic pub’ probably won’t do him too much harm with the previously Labour voting electorate he’s trying to swing.

 

Now does this have anything at all to do with the RST? Well I’d say no, but I’m not a member. The fact a Celtic supporter’s club is based there and that said club has members who are best described as bams doesn’t really have a lot to do with ‘us’, does it?

Rangers supporters tend not to vote along religious or ethnic lines. I‘m kind of proud of that. Despite being popularly represented to the contrary we’re a broad church politically and this should be recognised by the RST too. I don’t live in that constituency so I’ve no say in that particular battle. But I don’t live far from it and come the election I’ll see which party I feel best fits with what I believe, I’ll then look at who is standing locally for them and make my decision based on that. Photo-ops in pubs will play very little part in that, I imagine the good people of Glasgow Pollok will do similar.

 

It's also worth thinking on why someone ambitious politically and educated at Hutcheson's Grammar should choose to publicly support Celtic.

 

Lastly the thorny issue of Irish republicanism. I think many of ‘us’ struggle to view Irish independence in the same way we might view Indian or Jamaican or Kenyan independence movements far less the American one. There will be a number of reasons for this. I’m not sure how much those singing ‘rebel’ songs in Glasgow pubs really know or understand about Irish republicanism or the specific events they sing about. I’m not sure it really matters now either.

 

The centenary of the Easter Rising is literally weeks away and this is a big event in Ireland. Likewise the centenary of the Somme is this summer. Two huge events in the history of the island of Ireland that still reverberate to this day. A proper understanding of those events would do none of us in the West of Scotland any harm.

[pete 2,499]

Thanks for a piece of normalism.( I know it is not a real word but it fits)

[der Berliner 3,803]

Lastly the thorny issue of Irish republicanism. I think many of ‘us’ struggle to view Irish independence in the same way we might view Indian or Jamaican or Kenyan independence movements far less the American one. There will be a number of reasons for this. I’m not sure how much those singing ‘rebel’ songs in Glasgow pubs really know or understand about Irish republicanism or the specific events they sing about. I’m not sure it really matters now either..

 

Thanks for your words above, regarding the quote though ... the bone of contention here is that if we air TBB or some other songs, be it on the train, at a Gazza meet up or any football ground, a host of inquisitors chase the vile sectarian element and mindest of (all) Bluenoses ... and want people jailed. When the people* singing it are hardly any more or less sectarian than chaps airing rebel songs et al. When the equality of dealing with the matter was lost (to a large degree due to the witchhunt campaigns by the Yahoos), it was only natural that people want to see an even-handed approach rather than what we have now (or had for nearly a decade) - one-sided vilification, with those from beyond the Clyde walking scot-free for committing the very same "offense" time and again.

 

 

*Well, you do have the "they breath our oxygen"-hardliners on both sides, but I would hazard a guess that that is a stark minority indeed.

Edited February 27, 2016 by der Berliner

[tonyforres80 0]

Think we should be asking the press why they aren't looking into this, as ever they are all over any rangers fans misbehavior surely any snp event in a club or bar with sectarian elements should be investigated especially with the party's long time pushing the sectarian laws

Basically we should be calling out the press punting out their bias and hopefully embarrassing them into action

[Widget 1]

If the Tory candidate was pictured in The Louden on Duke St. pulling pints and laughing and joking with the patrons I'm pretty sure it would be reported differently.

[BrahimHemdani 1]

It's also worth thinking on why someone ambitious politically and educated at Hutcheson's Grammar should choose to publicly support Celtic.

 

As Pete says a well written post but as a former Hutchesonian I would question the above paragraph on two grounds.

 

Firstly there were two brothers Hutcheson; so it should be Hutchesons' not Hutcheson's.

 

Secondly, I don't see the connection between a 'rugby' School and choice of football team to support.

[barca72 440]

There’s a number of issues here. Firstly to describe the Old Govan Arms as an “IRA Pub” is stretching. It’s a Celtic pub for sure and has been for decades but it’s a jump to describe it as an “IRA pub”. I imagine a number of its regulars might be sympathetic to Irish republicanism and I’m sure it’s not unheard of to hear songs that could be described as ‘rebel songs’ at times too. But does that make it an “IRA pub”? I think there’s a big difference between singing songs they associate with football and actively supporting ethnic cleansing and systematic, cold-blooded murder of people with who you disagree politically and organised gangsterism.

 

As for why was Humza Yousaf there I’d have thought the reason was fairly self-explanatory; he’s a politician. He’s standing locally against a well known and well established incumbent. On top of that he’s a posh, privately educated, Muslim man trying to get elected in one of the poorest, most deprived constituencies in the country. So let’s be honest his advisors have recognised a number of voters will struggle to relate to him. So photo ops in pubs will be engineered. The fact that it’s a well known ‘Celtic pub’ probably won’t do him too much harm with the previously Labour voting electorate he’s trying to swing.

 

Now does this have anything at all to do with the RST? Well I’d say no, but I’m not a member. The fact a Celtic supporter’s club is based there and that said club has members who are best described as bams doesn’t really have a lot to do with ‘us’, does it?

Rangers supporters tend not to vote along religious or ethnic lines. I‘m kind of proud of that. Despite being popularly represented to the contrary we’re a broad church politically and this should be recognised by the RST too. I don’t live in that constituency so I’ve no say in that particular battle. But I don’t live far from it and come the election I’ll see which party I feel best fits with what I believe, I’ll then look at who is standing locally for them and make my decision based on that. Photo-ops in pubs will play very little part in that, I imagine the good people of Glasgow Pollok will do similar.

 

It's also worth thinking on why someone ambitious politically and educated at Hutcheson's Grammar should choose to publicly support Celtic.

 

Lastly the thorny issue of Irish republicanism. I think many of ‘us’ struggle to view Irish independence in the same way we might view Indian or Jamaican or Kenyan independence movements far less the American one. There will be a number of reasons for this. I’m not sure how much those singing ‘rebel’ songs in Glasgow pubs really know or understand about Irish republicanism or the specific events they sing about. I’m not sure it really matters now either.

 

The centenary of the Easter Rising is literally weeks away and this is a big event in Ireland. Likewise the centenary of the Somme is this summer. Two huge events in the history of the island of Ireland that still reverberate to this day. A proper understanding of those events would do none of us in the West of Scotland any harm.

 

I reject the premise of your post on several points.

First, I am not a member of the RST.

You have stated and I agree that the Rangers' support is drawn from a broad church. The one thing that is common among the Rangers' fans is that we all support our team, and in our own way. Hence, I don't think it is appropriate for you to attempt to denigrate or attempt to belittle a supporter, or group, for their actions unless they are breaking the law.

I think it is rather presumptious of you to imply that neither the RST, the Rangers' support nor the denizens of the Old Govan Arms are unaware of their history.

What exactly is this history and why does it impact on the OP? A few quotes ...

 

From a Southern Irish person's point of view ...

http://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/letters/commemorating-the-1916-rising-1.2114387

... Second, the utter lack of popular support for the Easter Rising at the time of its outbreak makes the “seminal moment” in the birth of our republic somewhat different from that of the American and French republics.

 

From Dr David Hume MBE, director of services, Grand Orange Lodge of Ireland ...

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/easter-1916-rebels-did-not-care-for-mandates-or-shirk-from-violence-1-7038811

... THE Easter Proclamation of 1916 was signed by seven men.

... But they could hardly have been said to represent the majority of nationalists or Roman Catholics in Ireland. In fact the seven men who led this revolutionary attempt were a small group within a small group, the Irish Republican Brotherhood.

... “Can dead people tell you what to do? Which ones? Didn’t Daniel O’Connell say that a single drop of blood was too much to pay for liberty?” Dudley Edwards asks.

 

Three groups, each with their own motives, participated in the Easter Rising.

 

The Irish Republican Brotherhood (IRB) was a secret revolutionary fraternity founded in the mid-19th century. They were also known as the '******s', and this group planned the rebellion.

The second key group involved in the rising was the anti-war Irish Volunteers who had split from Redmond's Volunteers in 1914.

They were led by Eoin MacNeill, a history professor who opposed the idea of an unprovoked rebellion, but the IRB secretly exercised considerable influence within the militia, controlling many of its leaders and officers.

The third group to participate in the rebellion was the Irish Citizen Army, a small socialist paramilitary organisation led by James Connolly.

 

The decision to rise was also based on the traditional ****** dictum that England's difficulty was Ireland's opportunity.

******s had long believed that only in time of war, with England distracted and the availability of a powerful European ally (Germany), could they hope to mount a successful challenge to the superior might of the British empire.

 

The aftermath

Most Irish people were appalled by the death and destruction unleashed by the rebellion.

The defeated rebels were jeered and attacked by some onlookers as they were led through the streets of Dublin.

But, as had occurred after earlier unsuccessful rebellions, Britain's response - including the execution of 15 of the leaders, the arrest of 3,430 men and 79 women (many of them entirely innocent) and the imposition of martial law throughout the entire country - provoked indignation and sympathy for the rebels.

The sacrifice of the rebels converted previously unsympathetic nationalists to the republican cause.

In the general election of December 1918, nationalist Ireland decisively rejected the Irish Party in favour of the new Sinn Fein party which identified itself with the 1916 rebels.

 

Now we have the connection between Sinn Fein and the residue of the violent gang that would become the IRA.

Why do we care?

******s would gravitate to the West of Scotland and mostly the streets of Glasgow. Here they would be confronted by Billy Fullarton's gang - The Billy Boys.

People being people, would take sides. They would also support the team of their culture. Hence Rangers and Celtic, although they are football clubs, are supported for the most part not only as football clubs but also because they are counter cultures.

Now in all honesty, do you think that the denizens of the Old Govan Arms, and their opposite numbers in numerous pubs of the opposite persuasion, do not know what they are singing and why they are singing it? I don't buy that point of view.

You may, or then again may not, agree that the arguments presented by Prof. Tom Devine and supported by our opposite culture were directly responsible for having The Billy Boys song banned because of the word '******'. The SNP government has made sure by the introduction of the OBA that this word shall remain forever objectionable.

These actions were not football related, but were strictly political.

 

I don't know about you but I enjoy listening to the Rangers' support when it rotates through the whole songbook. I feel energized when Ibrox is rocking. I especially miss TBB, but that's just an opinion.

The upshot is though, that we can't just go to the match on a Saturday and enjoy the game. We are forced, by the actions of others, to consider a more political environment. I don't have a police record, have never committed a felony, and yet if I want to watch the Rangers I am forced to watch the police filming me as I watch the game. Why? This is not football, this is politics. I never asked to be involved in politics while I watch my football team.

Naivety just won't cut it here. We have to consider the political pressure exerted on us while being a Rangers' supporter. We also have to consider that Celtic and their supporters are entirely aware of the political pressure brought to bear on our club and support. With the outright bias of the media in many areas any slip is hugely exaggerated.

I'm sure that the advisors in Humza Yousaf's campaign are targeting the 'Irish' element of the Labour vote when they staged this event. However, I view this event as a huge mistake. I think he has taken the 'non-Irish' vote for granted and that this will come back to bite not only him but the SNP in other districts.

He can't stage an event in The Louden now, for example, who would believe him?

Finally, you'll remember how the Rangers' support has been devastated in the last five years? Many times they have looked for leadership from somewhere because of the travesties that have taken place in the boardroom. In my view, and remember I am not a member of the RST, I think the RST are to be congratulated for their stance in challenging this obvious political bias by the party who gave us the OBA.

[BEARGER 1,830]

I don't know about you but I enjoy listening to the Rangers' support when it rotates through the whole songbook. I feel energized when Ibrox is rocking. I especially miss TBB, but that's just an opinion.

The upshot is though, that we can't just go to the match on a Saturday and enjoy the game. We are forced, by the actions of others, to consider a more political environment. I don't have a police record, have never committed a felony, and yet if I want to watch the Rangers I am forced to watch the police filming me as I watch the game. Why? This is not football, this is politics. I never asked to be involved in politics while I watch my football team.

 

I think that is an exaggerated claim. So far I have not been aware of the police filming me at any game at Ibrox, they seem only interested in our self styled ultras.