Allys duds...

[Bruno55 0]

I never metioned Allys signings I said Allys duds the players he gave a start. The magic hat has transformed the entire reserve team with the boys he thinks has a big future personally I think the Crawford's and airds and the rest you mentioned will be at different clubs.

[Rousseau 10,812]

It seems to me there is a misapprehension about players: they are either good or bad. Is there no in-between? Law's a unique player in our team; not a great passer, but is a genuine goal-threat and a good runner. We need players of different styles and abilities. I think it was our last game where Law was very useful: he was the goal-threat that we needed to win the game. I don't agree with this black and white view. Again, Miller and Shiels have been players that we've needed this season at times, for their individual ability. Every player has a part to play.

[calscot 0]

I never metioned Allys signings I said Allys duds the players he gave a start. The magic hat has transformed the entire reserve team with the boys he thinks has a big future personally I think the Crawford's and airds and the rest you mentioned will be at different clubs.

 

Sorry, you've written that in a way that is difficult to understand what you mean, but will try to answer anyway.

 

I think there will be a lot of players at different clubs in a couple of years time as this pretty normal for any team and far more so for us due to our journey back to the top. I think it's obvious that you will struggle to sign player who can win you the SPL and do well in Europe while being in the lower divisions. You have to do the needs must thing and bring in players you think can do a job at the time and cast them aside later. It's obvious who many of those have been by the shortness of their contracts.

 

Players like Zalelem, Oduwa and Ball will also be gone as will some of the other recent signings who don't make it long term, but that doesn't mean we should be snarky about them.

 

You must see what's happening in a different way from me, you seem to think the players I mentioned plus a couple more will be gone in January, I predict most of them will be with us till the end of the season and some of them will do a bit of a job for us - as they already have.

 

With all that's happening right now, I really don't get the snarkiness.

[Bruno55 0]

No snarkiness cal personally i dont think theyll be many left come the end of the season and wondered what the rest of the group thought...sorry if you picked me up wrong.

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

I think Shiels has been involved in most of our matches.

 

Mostly as a substitute though so maybe that doesn't make it into the highlights.

'Hardly starts'

 

Try reading more carefully in future.

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

Started recently and played well. Seems like he's seen as a useful part of the squad.

 

 

 

Don't recall him being a first team player before Ally... seems a bit of a twisted viewpoint. Ally gave him his debut and a total of 19 games that season when he was only 17/18. The guy is still only 20, we can see how he develops under the new management, and if his international experience improves him.

 

 

 

What has youth signing got to do with it? Ally gave him his first appearances and gave him 31 in League 2 [sic] when he was 17/18. He was then farmed out for experience - seems to have been a great decision.

 

 

 

Seems to be getting a game these days and some people on here prefer him to Oduwa.

 

 

 

Miller won't get another season, but seems to be well in the plans for the rest of this season, and as more than just a squad filler.

 

 

 

He's as good as most SPL keepers, and seems like reasonable backup to Foderingham.

 

 

 

Eh, didn't he sign him and give him his debut? I get from that that you must like this player and so want to dissociate him from Ally as it doesn't fit with your inflexible views on our former manager. Reality bites...

 

Interesting how in the list above, Ally gave three 17 year olds their debuts - you know, the guy who doesn't play young players...

 

However my list was an uncensored one of Ally's players - except I forgot Templeton. Those a bit more objective will probably consider all of them as having a role to play in the second half of the season, at minimum as backup squad players.

 

The exception is probably Templeton, not sure he will have a future. Already had his chance in pre-season under new management but didn't really take it. Could be one to go in January but only if we pay off the last 6 months of his contract.

 

I think the conclusion is that almost no-one is likely to go in January. But maybe you're right and about 6 will be paid off... we'll see.

What I was taking issue with was you listing players to once again try and defend McCoist's managerial ability.

 

Shiels - only started hitting any sort of form AFTER McCoist left. I am not saying we should release him in January, but neither would he be particularly missed. I wouldn't be surprised if he leaves next summer.

 

Aird - based on the fact he has made 0 starts and three sub appearances, it would seem he isn't highly thought of. Under McCoist he was regularly ineffective - a wide player who's pretty useless at dribbling and crossing.

 

McKay - was played out of necessity due to us being in the bottom league. When McCoist could sign his own players, he did so and he ended up shunted out on loan. He spent two seasons on loan at Raith and Greenock Morton, starting only 30 (41 incl. subs) games. Meanwhile during that period big Lee played 77 times. Ridiculous considering he was one of our most talented players. I would agree that it was a good decision though, simply because I think a young player would learn far more at Greenock and Raith than they ever would under Ally McCoist.

 

Law - the only game he has started recently was Dumbarton. Who said they want him to play instead of Oduwa? They play different positions.

 

Miller - fair enough. He was murder under Ally though.

 

Bell - we should never be using the SPL as a measure of quality unless it's Celtic.

 

Hardie - he played 4 minutes under McCoist.

 

Interesting how in the list above, Ally gave three 17 year olds their debuts - you know, the guy who doesn't play young players...

Give it a rest. After our first season in the bottom tier where he was forced to play youth, he played two on a regular basis: Aird and Macleod. Deplorable.

 

Templeton has no future, you are right. A complete waste of money.

 

If you could just admit you were wrong about McCoist and move on, we could put this behind us.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Ser Barristan Selmy

[ranger_syntax 4,422]

'Hardly starts'

 

Try reading more carefully in future.

 

What do you think I'm responding to?

[calscot 0]

What I was taking issue with was you listing players to once again try and defend McCoist's managerial ability.

 

No, I listed some players - pretty much a fact. You seem to take an issue with that.

 

However, I do tend to counter extreme viewpoints such as your own, with facts and rationality. And I know you also take an issue with that.

 

The difference between us is that I look at reality and reasoning and use them to form my opinion to suit. You take your opinion, and use it to form your reality and reasoning to suit.

 

Shiels - only started hitting any sort of form AFTER McCoist left. I am not saying we should release him in January, but neither would he be particularly missed. I wouldn't be surprised if he leaves next summer.

 

I'm not sure what you're arguing here, there are many reasons why a player would come into form, one of the realities that you like to ignore as it doesn't suit your opinion is the boardroom crisis we permanently had when McCoist was the manager. Reality shows that affected the players. Not to mention the depression of the fans and the difficulties put before McCoist for signing players. Our current manager and team cannot be purely compared due to having had a bright, new, optimistic dawn.

 

But it could even just be, that other than far more motivation, he might just fit into the new system better. But in the end the player is the player, and Ally signed him - which is my point, and why you have to try and trash it.

 

Aird - based on the fact he has made 0 starts and three sub appearances, it would seem he isn't highly thought of. Under McCoist he was regularly ineffective - a wide player who's pretty useless at dribbling and crossing.

 

I didn't say he was any good, I just listed him, so again you have to trash him. The fact is that he's still very young and may turn it around like McKay.

 

McKay - was played out of necessity due to us being in the bottom league.

 

Ah, that old excuse when reality doesn't fit. There are not many managers who play so many young players without necessity, but again that doesn't fit your opinion. The fact is that he played them. McKay is his player, he signed him and gave him 46 games at 17/18, but obviously didn't think he was ready at that age for winning the higher divisions and sent him out on loan - a pretty normal thing for a manager to do when he doesn't think a player is ready for the first team but wants him to gain first team experience. Hence why we have three right now - or are Venger and Pochettino just as shit as you think Ally is? See where your reality starts to look inconsistent?

 

When McCoist could sign his own players, he did so and he ended up shunted out on loan.

 

Again that's a skewed way of looking at it. It's ignoring that the young team were not consistent enough for the fans when winning the league, and so McCoist was under pressure to lose less games. He had a very tiny opportunity to sign some players and which manager would not take that and play them. It seems to have worked as he never lost a game in the league, so there is some justification there. McKay also came back and fought for his place and is doing well, and so the loan spell seemed to have worked also.

 

He spent two seasons on loan at Raith and Greenock Morton, starting only 30 (41 incl. subs) games. Meanwhile during that period big Lee played 77 times. Ridiculous considering he was one of our most talented players.

 

Now here again you seem to be twisting things completely. I don't think Ally was responsible for how many games he played on loan. Perhaps he would have played more had his attitude been better or his form better or his maturity or whatever. But your point makes no sense except in context of your constant anti-Ally tirade. BTW what is talent without application, or form or maturity or whatever? I don't recall you saying he was one of most talented players at the time...

 

I would agree that it was a good decision though, simply because I think a young player would learn far more at Greenock and Raith than they ever would under Ally McCoist.

 

Yes, that viewpoint is nicely twisted to your immutable opinion. So if Zelalem goes back a better player, does that mean Wenger is shit?

 

Law - the only game he has started recently was Dumbarton. Who said they want him to play instead of Oduwa? They play different positions.

 

I looked it up and he's started 7 this season and come off the bench 7 times, so your point is again meaningless. I think the point with Oduwa was that Law puts in a shift and can be effective, whereas Oduwa often flatters to deceive without much end product. They don't have to play in the exact same position for one to replace the other, they can both play at right midfield, Oduwa just plays wider as a winger. BTW Oduwa has started 8 and been subbed on 5 times, so maybe he doesn't really play for us either...

 

Miller - fair enough. He was murder under Ally though.

 

Still Ally's player.

 

Bell - we should never be using the SPL as a measure of quality unless it's Celtic.

 

Again your version of reality doesn't seem to fit with what has happened to Rangers recently and the position we've been in regarding signing players. You really think we could have signed a keeper or the quality that Celtic could sign at the time?

 

Hardie - he played 4 minutes under McCoist.

 

Really stretching here. Ally signed him and played him so he was obviously in his plans despite being 17 years old - now that really messes with your reality. Ally resigned halfway through that season but he went on to play 6 times. Despite being a year older and under a manager you approve of, he's only had two substitute appearances so far this season.

 

Give it a rest. After our first season in the bottom tier where he was forced to play youth, he played two on a regular basis: Aird and Macleod. Deplorable.

 

Give what a rest? So he played only two teenagers regularly which is deplorable. So how deplorable is Mourinho, who didn't play ANY teenagers regularly in the last two seasons?

 

Looking it up, they had 0 games two season ago and 7 last year (although two players who turned 20 had some games). Ally's two played about 61 games between them despite an injury to McLeod which limited his appearances.

 

Funny how Mourinho also looks more "clueless" than McCoist this season using your criterion of being clueless if you don't always beat teams with less money and are below any in the league...

 

Templeton has no future, you are right. A complete waste of money.

 

So one real dud out of 10 of Ally's players? Doesn't sound as bad as you make it.

 

The reality is that there are 10 players that can be attributed to Ally out of a small squad of 23. We can't get rid of them all in January and Warburton has been using them at about 30-40% of the team. They are therefore 30-40% responsible for our recent success.

 

Just because there were Ally's players, does not make them all duds, as some would like to see it to fit into the "Ally can do no right" type thinking.

 

Lee Wallace, Nicky Law, Dean Sheils, Barry McKay, Kenny Miller and Nicky Clark are all getting significant game time. Bell is a keeper and injured in any case, but when fit you'd expect him to deputise. Templeton had a few starts, but to fit his reputation, is again injured. That leaves Aird and Hardie. The latter will probably be part of the future, the former who has just had his international debut, is on the wait and see list.

 

As I pointed out in an early post, I see quite a few leaving at the end of the season, but it looks like the majority are very much part of the plans for this season. You don't change the horse midstream when you're winning... well, in football it means you don't change it too much.

 

If you could just admit you were wrong about McCoist and move on, we could put this behind us.

 

Of course I'm wrong about McCoist - in your version of reality. In this world, I think I've shown your twist things to fit your extreme negative opinion of him. I've seen how you are very uncomfortable with people disagreeing with you, but that does not mean I can comply with you plea.

 

As I've always said, his crime was to be mediocre, and reality fits. To try and blame him for pretty much everything and anything, twisting everything to suit, seems a bit of an obsessed vendetta which diverts so many threads.

Edited October 21, 2015 by calscot