Mohsni - The SFA have made an example out of me

[ian1964 10,761]

I think I must be a thug,the same as Moshni,because if that happened to me in the same circumstances I would have done the same.

[pete 2,499]

I am not medically qualified, Pete, so cannot argue with your opinion; but I still doubt that many refrees would have viewed that push as violent conduct, within the meaning of the Las of the Game.

 

Here is an answer from a medical expert which for me goes to prove that if it is SFA policy to accept pushes in the back then thy are totally misguided.

Whiplash

 

Whiplash is caused by a short sudden movement of the neck and head, as sometimes occurs in traffic accidents or a fall. The movement can be back to front, front to back, or sideways. It can damage the vertebrae and the soft parts of the neck such as the muscles, tendons and ligaments. The damage is often not visible on X-rays.

While whiplash is often associated with traffic accidents, it can also be the result of a sport injury, by a fall from a step, or by an unexpected push on the back. The most common complaints in whiplash trauma are neck pain, headaches, loss of concentration, fatigue, memory loss, double vision or fuzzy vision, stiff neck, tingling in the fingers or arms. The symptoms of whiplash often only become noticeable after a few days. In some cases, the victim may even only notice symptoms after months or years.

 

The symptoms of whiplash can sometimes be so severe that victims are unable to work. To avoid this degree of severity, it is important that people have themselves examined by a chiropractor as quickly as possible after an accident. The chiropractor can determine whether treatment is necessary to restore the mobility of the neck vertebrae as soon as possible.

 

http://www.chiropractie-stegeman.nl/Whiplash-EN.html

Edited June 21, 2015 by pete

[barca72 440]

A lot of what you say is true, LB.

 

Despite the guidance from FIFA, ultimately what constitutes violent conduct is a matter for the referee's judgement; but the guidance of "excessive force" and "brutality" is there to assist a referee in making that judgement.

 

Let me put this another way. Let's say that Mohsni refuses to shake hands, Erwin pushes him in the back but with sufficient force to knock him down, Mohsni takes it in his stride and walks off the park. What action would or should the referee have taken then? Most likely nothing in my opinion, other than perhaps a suggestion in the player's ear that the game is over and get up the f**** up the tunnel as quickly as possible. Possibly a yellow card for unsporting behaviour, which is the SFA view. Had Mohsni not retaliated none of this would be under discussion.

 

I agree that I am far from unbiased where Mr Bilel Mohsni is concerned but I have tried to give an opinion from a refereeing perspective of what the Laws of the Game have to say on this subject based on my experience as a referee and administrator in the game; but I have also said that ultimately "violent conduct" is a judgement call for each referee, whom absent the SFA. They made the call and I agree with their decision.

 

On last thing, I was a Rangers fan when I was a referee. Most if not all referees are fans of one team or another. That does not make their decisions invalid even where they are for or against "their" team. As a referee or linesman you simply do not have time to think will I give this decison for or against "my" team. You only have a split second to make a decision, whether it be a foul, throw in or whatever. This is hard enough without factoring in bias. I know that's not really your point; but I thouught I'd add it nonetheless.

 

Bh,

I think this 'sporting' angle you are on is a non-starter. When I was younger I played the game and even at amateur level if a player whom you had just beaten was purposely walking off the park and whose body-language was telling you that he was not happy, you let him go.

As you know, in any large corporate body the rest of the organization will take on the personality of the top man. Ask the SFA & the SPFL about 'sporting integrity'.

That's not to say that I would like to see the players' respect for each other's efforts eradicated by not having a 'sporting handshake', I wouldn't. However, for you and the rest of the SFA attempting to take the moral high ground with Mohsni is wrong. What is also wrong is Mohsni kicking an opponent. What is also wrong, and in my mind every bit as serious as the reaction from Mohsni, is this Erwin's assault on Mohsni.

If you look back on the replays of both games this Erwin character was not afraid to use tactics that the other players did not appreciate and that the 'sporting' referees let him go.

I don't know about you, but when I was playing the game, I loved a game when I won and I absolutely hated the game when I got beat. I never punched anybody at the end of a game, but there again nobody attempted to assault me either. I can't honestly say that I shook the hand of every opponent I played against.

Please, give it a rest. The guy was beaten and wanted to get into the dressing room without any further interaction. So what? There's many a game down through history where players have not been inclined to shake hands after the game. Ask DeCanio and Lennon.

I agree with Ian1964, I may have whacked him after being assaulted but using the boot is a bit much.

[Bearman 9]

I think I must be a thug,the same as Moshni,because if that happened to me in the same circumstances I would have done the same.

 

You may well be a thug and going by your comment you probably are if deemed Yes if someone had shoved me in the back after a big disappointment I'd have kicked and punched him too.

 

Next morning I'd be looking for someone to bail me out of Bar-L feeling like a real plonker.

 

A seven game ban means he can carry on his career eventually, to us in our society can mean possible ruin.

[Anchorman 0]

You may well be a thug and going by your comment you probably are if deemed Yes if someone had shoved me in the back after a big disappointment I'd have kicked and punched him too.

Next morning I'd be looking for someone to bail me out of Bar-L feeling like a real plonker.

A seven game ban means he can carry on his career eventually, to us in our society can mean possible ruin.

 

Bar-L for a punch and a kick? What would you punch him with? An iron?

[Anchorman 0]

I think I must be a thug,the same as Moshni,because if that happened to me in the same circumstances I would have done the same.

 

Agree 100%. A smack in the chops would have come natural to a lot of us in that position. BTW check out the hypocricy of wee Britney

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/football/hamburg-revenge-not-so-sweet-in-end-for-gemmell.25254140

 

"Incensed as only he could be, Gemmell turned and chased after the German, who tried to run away, like a wee boy in a playground. In the grainy black-and white footage, Gemmell's right leg suddenly appears to become twice its natural length as it stretches out and applies retribution to Haller, booting him into the air. The Juventus striker had already jumped to cushion the blow.

Poor Tommy Gemmell. He was a great footballer - some said the best left-back in Europe at the time - yet this will remain one of the funniest moments ever seen on an international football field. "

[calscot 0]

Mohsni is the victim of bullying? Come in Calscot you can do better than that.

 

I think you may have led a sheltered life. A hard push in the back is the staple of the bully. And the sad thing is they get away time and again with it because of people with your strange attitude.

 

And that's exactly the point. His place of work is a football pitch NOT the street; so he is subject to a different standard in terms of setting an example and the Laws of the Game; but he should be subject to the laws of the land as well and should have been charged with at least a breach of the peace.

 

Are you talking about Erwin? I suspect not as you are showing no consistency whatsoever. The breach of the peace to me, is down to the guy who starts it - your arguments don't even make sense when it comes to cause and effect. There was peace and then it was breached by Erwin. He would have been immediately arrested if he had pushed a policeman like that. Do policemen have more rights?

[calscot 0]

I agree with much of what you say above but there is no way you can say that #3 was unprovoked. Mohsni's retaliation WAS provocation to Erwin's colleagues, absolutely. I am sure you will argue that this should have been a 1-on-1 square go - but that is hardly ever the case.

 

I disagree, there was no provocation to gang attack Mohsni and no justification for it whatsoever. The civilised thing to do would be to restrain Mohsni - even more-so as their colleague started the whole thing. If it was my mate, I would not be cowardly joining in beating up an outnumbered guy for hitting back. I would, however, be involved in using the greater numbers of force in stopping it.

 

There is a massive difference between a one on one, than a gang attack - and it wasn't a square go, Mohsni was attacked - and he didn't get his mates to gang up and beat up Erwin - were the other Rangers players just as provoked?

 

I think you need to mentally put yourself - or even better your son, in Mohsni's position. I think you'll see it a lot differently.

 

If you had dropped the word "unprovoked" from #3 and just called it a gang attack then I would agree. Suggesting that it was unprovoked I just cant accept.

 

The rest of it, absolutely.

 

To provoke it he'd have had to be attacked them, or at least be the instigator. How can defending oneself, even in retaliation (which is a form of defence as a deterrent for further attack), provoke a beating from multiple guys? That doesn't make sense to me.

[Scott7 6,173]

Erwin's mates rush to join in - terrible, shocking.

Our lads fail to rush to join in - terrible, shocking.

 

What am I not understanding here?

[calscot 0]

I'm sorry I don't really understand your points but I'll try to clarify mine.

 

He (Mohsni) was warned on multiple occasions by previous boss Paul Sturrock about his poor disciplinary record, having collected 17 bookings and four red cards in three seasons at Southend http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22124604 including one for kicking a Northampton player in the goolies after just 27 minutes. Seriously, take a look at it here: http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11788/9872013/a-look-at-the-rap-sheet-of-rangers-defender-bilel-moshni-after-motherwell-brawl

 

AND be honest, how many times have you seen a player punch another in the face with a straight left or right? AND on how many of those occasions was the player retaliating after being pushed in the back?

 

AND he was sent off 4 times in 2 seasons with us and I don't know how many bookings.

 

So that's 8 red cards in 5 seasons, which is a far worse record than earned Willie Woodburn a sine die ban. That was my main point.

 

I really can't see the relevance. If Mohsni started it with a headbutt then it could be used in deciding his punishment, but having previous guilt does not make you guilty in an unprovoked attack. This is pretty simple stuff when it comes to justice and I'm astounded you don't see. You are prejudging the guy based on his previous, even though it's obvious he was the victim here.

 

I would have been derelict of my duty if I had been refereeing and not protected Mohsni from a push in the back? How exactly would I or any referee have done that?

 

You really don't know something so obvious, even though I've already explained it? You do it by severely punishing those who attack (including push) other players when it has nothing to do with the actual game. That acts as a deterent for the perpetrator and allows the victim to walk away from knowing justice will be done. You say you do not do this, you agree with Erwins lack of punishment and therefore you are giving the players NO PROTECTION.

 

Bullies like Erwin therefore think they can do it and get away with - and also know that if the player retaliates, it's his victim who is the one that get punished. How encouraging can you get? Victims like Mohsni know there is no-one else to dispense justice or even future bullying except themselves and so are compelled to react. Bullies rely and feed on the fact that most victims walk away. This is really simple stuff you learn at school - and ironically, the reason it's not stamped out there, is because too many people think like you.

 

 

I have seen few if any referees who by their very presence could control a player's actions; Tom "Tiny" Wharton could do it sometimes but he couldn't stop Jimmy Johnstone kicking Totie Beck in the New Year derby in 1965. And I wasn't on the same planet as Tiny Wharton who was my supervisor for some years. Jack Mowat (who preceded Wharton both as my supervisor and as Chairman of the Supervisors and who refereed the 1960 European Cup Final: Real Madrid v Eintracht Frankfurt at Hampden Park) probably did because he was known as a fierce disciplinarian. Bob Valentine could do it because he was so fit that he was always right on top of the action. Brian McGinlay, perhaps sometimes, by his camaraderie with the players. Hugh Dallas couldn't do that, the best he could do was get a high percentage of the decisions correct and he was far and away the best of his generation. NO referee in the modern era compares to those five IMHO. None of them could have stopped Erwin pushing Mohsni in the back or Mohsni punching and kicking in retaliation. Indeed referees are advised to stand back, take note of who does what and then take appropriate action; not get physically involved themselves.

 

Read my previous paragraphs. It's like saying we shouldn't prosecute anyone for assault as it doesn't protect anyone as it's after the fact. I'll repeat it's about having a deterent and punishment for the perpetrator and justice for the victim, neither of which you nor the SFA are capable of.

 

Are you somehow suggesting that in the spirit of the law Erwin should have been subject to harsher punishment and/or Mohsni less so? If that's your stance could you explain that a bit further please.

 

Of course he should be, it was an unprovoked attack. Mohsni has the special defence of self defence which even in just normal morals provides him with a deterrent and justice. Who is going to risk pushing him next time? Oh yeah, I know, the guys who take advantage of the ludicrous rules to get him sent off and banned while receiving no punishment themselves. How stupid is that?

 

As I said, your attitude is what bullies live off of.

 

I not sure how sheltered a life you have led but a lot bullies MOs are to call their victims names, provoke them, and when that doesn't work - shove them in the back as they pass. They either want to see the victim walk away intimidated or to do something meek, which gives them and their mates the excuse to get stuck in. They only tend to do one on one when they are much bigger than the victim or when the victim has a record of never fighting back or doing so meekly. These victims are repeated abused in this way as the bullies are never punished.

 

The one almost sure way to stop the bullying is to really hurt the main aggressor. You might get a kicking from his mates but it can mean that they leave you alone after that as no many people like getting hurt - especially most bullies. (Of course it doesn't work with total sociopaths or those who like pain.)

 

Of course this wouldn't be necessary if the bullying was treated as serious and properly punished.

 

You nip it in the bud and these fights don't happen and everyone grows up with less physical and psychological scars. In this case it's for grown ups - the fight would probably have not happened, but even if it did then if the book was thrown at Erwin, and all before him, it would be far less likely to happen in the future - and so more players would just walk away knowing the attacker would be severely punished.

 

It would also mean throwing the book at Mohsni if he attacked anyone - with an even more severe punishment for previous.

Edited June 23, 2015 by calscot