Rob Kiernan - Bid Accepted

[der Berliner 3,803]

When is he due to sign?

 

Going by what the Scottish Sun says, he and Wilson might sign within the next 24 hours.

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

You said "there's a complete lack of English players and coaches abroad", those are your words not mine. If you want to change your sweeping and incorrect statement to 'in the big leagues' then fine, but you should have said that first time round.

I'm ever so sorry Pedantic Pete! Let me rephrase, who are all these English players and coaches abroad? Saying 'a complete lack' is perfectly correct. Of course there will be some players but there is definitely a complete lack compared to the other big nations.

 

Even then money is still the deciding factor, if the English leagues suddenly run out of money you'll see English players move abroad. That's what happened with Spanish players after the economic crash. Prior to that Spanish players stayed in Spain because they could, the salaries were as good if not better than anywhere else. Now they aren't they move abroad. Go figure.

If you are agreeing how highly paid players in England are then surely that backs up my point that the players there are overpaid, thus it's not an ideal league to focus on?

 

When was this mass exodus of Spanish players? The current Spain squad has 17 out of 23 La Liga players. In the 2010 world cup final, all 14 Spanish players who played were La Liga players.

 

You seem to be struggling to differentiate between an English person and the football leagues based in England. The EPL is as strong as any league in the world, I don't see how anyone can deny that. It contains many of the finest footballers on the planet and some of the best club sides. As such the levels below the top level tend to be stronger than similar divisions elsewhere.

The EPL is not as strong as any league, you definitely are swallowing the Sky Sports spin. This was shown by the poor performance in the CL - Man City have been one of the top 2 teams for a while now and their performance in the CL has been abysmal overall. Regularly struggling to even get past the group tables. Chelsea also got dispatched by PSG, who are themselves some way off Europe's elite (Bayern, Barca, Real, Juventus etc). Arsenal may as well just not bother entering the tournament and Liverpool were just awful. Again if you look at the Europa Cup performance at the lower down teams, other leagues are easily outperforming them. The general standard in England outwith the top 5 or 6 teams is in reality extremely mediocre. The bottom half Premiership teams really are pretty poor, particularly considering the vast sums they blow.

 

Your Champion's League statement doesn't stand up to scrutiny either. In the last ten years English clubs have won the trophy 3 times and been runners up 5 times, only Spain has more winners in that time (five) and runners up once. You can have the Europa Cup, as you probably know most English sides don't take it too seriously, more fool them.

Why are you extending it to 10 years? You're talking about teams that had completely different squads of players. Why not make it 20 years if you want to start introducing extended arbitrary periods of time? I've seen plenty English sides play full strength teams and get embarrassed against tiny teams in the Europa Cup.

 

 

 

Actually the current Bayern squad has 11 Germans in a squad of 25 and the Barcelona squad has only 9 Spanish players out of the 25. Not my idea of "full" it has to be said. The current Man United squad contains 34 players. 15 are English and two more Northern Irish, so British. That's a higher ratio of 'home' players than either Barca or Bayern.

Man Utd? Come on! They have so much relevance just now that they didn't even compete in Europe last season. Must be all those English players! Although you might want to do some research into their squad because a lot of those English players didn't play a single game last season. The 11 players who featured most last season contained 2 English players - Rooney and Young. Bayern had 6 and that did not include Schweinsteiger who was injured and would normally start. Barcelona had 14 Spanish players in their squad last season - they have more foreigners in their XI than they did before but they will have more Spanish players coming through - the spine of their team until very recently was the likes of Valdes, Puyol, Pique, Busquets, Iniesta, Xavi, Pedro etc and they have been hugely successful with a predominantly Spanish side.

 

I agree that the top four in England sign players who are better than the rest, whether they are English, Spanish of Martian, they can afford pretty much who they want and so buy that way. Indeed it goes deeper than the top four. That doesn't make the English leagues poor or English players sub standard though. It's pure economics, that's all.

The top 4 in England have far less English players than the other big leagues have of their nationalities. English players are overpaid and underskilled, as shown by the international team's performance. When did they last get to the final of a major tournament again?

 

 

Fair enough, I'd never heard of him until this week and thought I'd read he was Irish.

Presumably he would be playing in Spain if they could afford him.

[JohnMc 2,801]

You do the CL stats for the last decade if you feel so inclined. I gave you five years as that is what the UEFA co-efficient is based on.

 

I did, see above.

 

The stats for the Europa League show that the high standard that you claim exists in the English game would not appear to go much below the top 4 or 5 clubs. The Spanish and Portuguese teams are consistently reaching the latter stages of the competition.

 

No, the stats prove that English sides don't take the tournament seriously. We can keep doing this if you want but if you seriously believe the Portuguese league has more depth than the English one then any credibility you might have becomes difficult to take seriously. You keep doing that, good luck with your argument!

 

It wasn't so long ago that you were slagging off Brentford as a tinpot club when Lewis McLeod went to them, yet now we have you waxing lyrical about the merits of Rangers buying players from that league and below....and picked by the very same manager who was in charge at that flash in the pan club!

 

Nope, I was slagging off Rangers, try reading it again. It was heartbreaking a club like Brentford could buy our best player, but that's on us not them. I'm old enough to remember when Watford bought our club captain, I felt the same way about that. Just as well we didn't have messageboards then or you could have misunderstood that too...

[JohnMc 2,801]

I'm ever so sorry Pedantic Pete! Let me rephrase, who are all these English players and coaches abroad? Saying 'a complete lack' is perfectly correct. Of course there will be some players but there is definitely a complete lack compared to the other big nations.

 

Hey, you used the words, don't complain if people read them and judge you on them. You want them to judge you other things then use different words.

 

If you are agreeing how highly paid players in England are then surely that backs up my point that the players there are overpaid, thus it's not an ideal league to focus on?

 

Footballers are overpaid, full stop. The better ones tend to be even more overpaid. England currently pays more than anywhere else so that's when most of the good ones gravitate too. This isn't hard SBS, it's pure economics and has been how the game has worked since it went professional. You factor in social and cultural issues and your argument makes even less sense.

 

When was this mass exodus of Spanish players? The current Spain squad has 17 out of 23 La Liga players. In the 2010 world cup final, all 14 Spanish players who played were La Liga players.

 

Started about 3 or 4 years ago but it continues apace... "However, financially troubled clubs in the second rank like Atletico Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla have been forced to cash in on their prize assets, who are increasingly seeking a new challenge and better wages away from Spain.

 

The EPL is not as strong as any league, you definitely are swallowing the Sky Sports spin. This was shown by the poor performance in the CL - Man City have been one of the top 2 teams for a while now and their performance in the CL has been abysmal overall. Regularly struggling to even get past the group tables. Chelsea also got dispatched by PSG, who are themselves some way off Europe's elite (Bayern, Barca, Real, Juventus etc). Arsenal may as well just not bother entering the tournament and Liverpool were just awful. Again if you look at the Europa Cup performance at the lower down teams, other leagues are easily outperforming them. The general standard in England outwith the top 5 or 6 teams is in reality extremely mediocre. The bottom half Premiership teams really are pretty poor, particularly considering the vast sums they blow.

 

I don't have Sky Sports and I take anything said by Rupert Murdoch at arm's length. I'm old school print union, Wapping and Kinning Park, old, old habits die hard. Anyway, no one is disagreeing that Bayern, Real and Barca have been the best club sides over the last few seasons. That doesn't automatically right off the English league system though. Below Bayern the German league is fairly weak, below Spain's big two it's a sea of financial catastrophe and Italian football is in the doldrums, no one is quite sure how Juventus made the champion's League final, but they so easily romped Serie A this year we can be sure there's no depth there either.

You claim the standard in England is extremely mediocre, compared to what? Certainly not compared to any other league in Europe it isn't, the top six or seven in England are easily stronger than the equivalent in Spain or Germany.

 

Why are you extending it to 10 years? You're talking about teams that had completely different squads of players. Why not make it 20 years if you want to start introducing extended arbitrary periods of time? I've seen plenty English sides play full strength teams and get embarrassed against tiny teams in the Europa Cup.

 

Ten was a nice round number but any period of time you pick will be arbitrary. It doesn't change the fact a wider spread of English sides have reached the Champion's League final then any other country. That's because it's a good league and has strength on depth.

 

Man Utd? Come on! They have so much relevance just now that they didn't even compete in Europe last season. Must be all those English players! Although you might want to do some research into their squad because a lot of those English players didn't play a single game last season. The 11 players who featured most last season contained 2 English players - Rooney and Young. Bayern had 6 and that did not include Schweinsteiger who was injured and would normally start. Barcelona had 14 Spanish players in their squad last season - they have more foreigners in their XI than they did before but they will have more Spanish players coming through - the spine of their team until very recently was the likes of Valdes, Puyol, Pique, Busquets, Iniesta, Xavi, Pedro etc and they have been hugely successful with a predominantly Spanish side.

 

I know, me and my pesky facts. Tell me about all those German and Spanish players again...

 

The top 4 in England have far less English players than the other big leagues have of their nationalities. English players are overpaid and underskilled, as shown by the international team's performance. When did they last get to the final of a major tournament again?

 

When we start looking to buy English international players you might have a point. Whilst we're in the market for Wigan reserve players you can keep your strawmen.

 

Presumably he would be playing in Spain if they could afford him.

 

He'd play in the North Pole if they offered him more money. You seem to be struggling to grasp this very basic tenet of football.

[Rangersitis 0]

No, the stats prove that English sides don't take the tournament seriously. We can keep doing this if you want but if you seriously believe the Portuguese league has more depth than the English one then any credibility you might have becomes difficult to take seriously. You keep doing that, good luck with your argument!

 

 

My argument is that the English teams, despite all their wealth, are being outperformed by other nations in both of the UEFA competitions. Claiming that English sides don't take the EL seriously isn't borne out by the facts. Both Liverpool and Everton went out while fielding their strongest available teams. Like Pochettino, I'm not really sure what Spurs best team is, but they fielded most of them in defeat to Fiorentina.

 

 

Nope, I was slagging off Rangers, try reading it again. It was heartbreaking a club like Brentford could buy our best player, but that's on us not them. I'm old enough to remember when Watford bought our club captain, I felt the same way about that. Just as well we didn't have messageboards then or you could have misunderstood that too...

 

You were demeaning Brentford without having the first idea about what you were talking about, even misrepresenting their crowds to try and push your arrogant views. If you read all of the comments on the thread you will see that one or two others also 'misunderstood' you. I too am old enough to remember when Watford signed McClelland so your wee Top Trumps moment fell flat.

 

..........

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

Hey, you used the words, don't complain if people read them and judge you on them. You want them to judge you other things then use different words.

You have no answer to the question then?

 

 

Footballers are overpaid, full stop. The better ones tend to be even more overpaid. England currently pays more than anywhere else so that's when most of the good ones gravitate too. This isn't hard SBS, it's pure economics and has been how the game has worked since it went professional. You factor in social and cultural issues and your argument makes even less sense.

The QPR squad that earned more than Champions League finalists and La Liga winners Atletico Madrid say hello. QPR players were also on higher salaries than Dortmund. No QPR player would get anywhere near the Atletico or Dortmund squads. The best players gravitating towards England is not backed up whatsoever in their European performance in either trophy.

 

 

 

Started about 3 or 4 years ago but it continues apace... "However, financially troubled clubs in the second rank like Atletico Madrid, Valencia and Sevilla have been forced to cash in on their prize assets, who are increasingly seeking a new challenge and better wages away from Spain.

I think you will find the likes of Silva, Navas, Mata etc left to go to the top 2 teams in England because the top 2 teams in Spain don't want them. The Spanish squad has at all times been predominantly La Liga players, with now 17/23 players playing there.

 

 

 

I don't have Sky Sports and I take anything said by Rupert Murdoch at arm's length. I'm old school print union, Wapping and Kinning Park, old, old habits die hard. Anyway, no one is disagreeing that Bayern, Real and Barca have been the best club sides over the last few seasons. That doesn't automatically right off the English league system though. Below Bayern the German league is fairly weak, below Spain's big two it's a sea of financial catastrophe and Italian football is in the doldrums, no one is quite sure how Juventus made the champion's League final, but they so easily romped Serie A this year we can be sure there's no depth there either.

You claim the standard in England is extremely mediocre, compared to what? Certainly not compared to any other league in Europe it isn't, the top six or seven in England are easily stronger than the equivalent in Spain or Germany.

Be honest - you don't watch any foreign football, do you? Do you seriously believe that Chelsea, Man City, Arsenal, Man Utd, Spurs and Liverpool are currently better than Barcelona, Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid, Valencia, Sevilla and Villareal? You then have Athletic Bilbao at 7th and it's not long ago they easily outclassed champions Man Utd in both their ties in Europe.

 

 

 

Ten was a nice round number but any period of time you pick will be arbitrary. It doesn't change the fact a wider spread of English sides have reached the Champion's League final then any other country. That's because it's a good league and has strength on depth.

I'm talking about the here and now. Here and now English teams are performing woefully in both European trophies because they are not good enough.

 

 

 

I know, me and my pesky facts. Tell me about all those German and Spanish players again...

You are the one who brought up a ridiculous example and a side where 9/11 of their first XI are foreign.

 

 

 

When we start looking to buy English international players you might have a point. Whilst we're in the market for Wigan reserve players you can keep your strawmen.

Players from the Championship do not tend to go to Spain, Italy, Germany etc, simply because the interest is not there.

 

 

 

He'd play in the North Pole if they offered him more money. You seem to be struggling to grasp this very basic tenet of football.

And the point is these foreign teams have no interest in English football because it's full of overrated players on far too much money.

Edited June 19, 2015 by Ser Barristan Selmy

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

Interesting to note that last year's ballon d'or top 20 had 2 players from the Premiership, with 0 of them being English. Meanwhile there was 9 from Spain, 6 from Germany and 2 from France. The best players in the world do not play in the premiership.

[Frankie 8,652]

I don't care where the club sign the player from as long as they've done their homework first.

[the gunslinger 3,366]

The best players in the world play at the richest clubs. Those aren't in England. Where England gets it right is in the spread of wealth making it a competitive league.

[der Berliner 3,803]

According to the 2013/14 figures, five out of ten of the richest teams in Europe are in the EPL. Liverpool (9th), Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City and ManU (2nd). The others are Juve (10th), PSG, Barca, Bayern and Real (1st). These might have changed a little order-wise last season, but the clubs remain the same.

Edited June 19, 2015 by der Berliner