Big Players Step Up

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

no you don't

we bought the best players and couldn't even win the championship

we need a longer term view

Investing in scouts and looking at players outside Scotland would be a good start.

[ian1964 10,761]

no you don't

we bought the best players and couldn't even win the championship

we need a longer term view

 

Aye you do!,the best team has the best players!

We never bought the best players,obviously!

If we get promoted we don't have time for a long term view,well we do slightly have to plan long term but at the same time the Rangers fans demand at least to compete,the long term plan ship sailed a few years ago!.

Did C****c win the title because they were the best team, with best players,who had to pay the highest wage?

[Rousseau 10,819]

Our squad absolutely needs gutted. Which players do you think have a future to play? Which players are good enough to be challenging Celtic and leading us back into Europe?

 

And of course we should have romped the Scottish second division. No doubt about that at all. We outspend the rest of the top 4 put together and frankly it's a joke we didn't run away with the league.

 

I don't think it does. The majority can play a role--I'm not suggesting they can compete with Celtic at all. I think there is a half-decent base there, which with some additions can challenge for top 6 or second. The squad needs improved. I just think, in our current situation, a complete rebuild is unrealistic. I would certainly want a Abramovich-style rebuild but I doubt it'll happen. We must build on what we have.

 

Perhaps we should have, but it's not as easy as that. Man Utd had the biggest wage bill, does that mean they should have romped the Premier League. However, whereas many have been blaming the players--and to an extent they should be blamed because they haven't performed well enough--I was suggesting the main problem was the management.

[Rousseau 10,819]

We need a whole new team to compete with celtc for the league let alone win it.

 

who exactly are people talking about staying and playing anything other than a bit part?

 

That's exactly what I said: they are decent squad players; I'm not suggesting they are starters! I just don't expect this rebuild to happen, or at least not in the manner we would all like. We have a basic squad, it needs improving, but that does not imply that we should be releasing everyone. IMO.

[Rousseau 10,819]

Aye you do!,the best team has the best players!

We never bought the best players,obviously!

If we get promoted we don't have time for a long term view,well we do slightly have to plan long term but at the same time the Rangers fans demand at least to compete,the long term plan ship sailed a few years ago!.

Did C****c win the title because they were the best team, with best players,who had to pay the highest wage?

 

I think if we do it your way, we'll be in the same situation in a few years time. Short-term pain for long-term gain is what I'm prepared for; we need to build long-term.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rousseau

[ian1964 10,761]

I think if we do it your way, we'll be in the same situation in a few years time. Short-term pain for long-term gain is what I'm prepared for; we need to build long-term.

 

You are talking about over spending,spending too much,I'm not. We need better quality to compete,better quality requires spending,are you saying we should not buy any players?.

[pete 2,499]

I think if we do it your way, we'll be in the same situation in a few years time. Short-term pain for long-term gain is what I'm prepared for; we need to build long-term.

 

Personally I don't believe in that statement as it gives you an excuse for failure and lowering you're expectations now. No we should not go splattering millions everywhere but the far future begins today. What time line is this long term gain? How can we measure where we are in this long term gain if we are still failing? We need to do both. We need to make improvements that allows us to challenge for Europe next season. We also have to put a long term plan in place bringing scouting and youth coaching up to a level that could possibly make us self sufficient but we must not forget that there are very few clubs playing in the top of Europe that relies totally on there own youth scheme.

The long term gain thing is like a player waiting for the ball to come to him instead of moving towards the ball to get it in my eyes a lot of the time it never reaches you.

Edited May 26, 2015 by pete

[Rousseau 10,819]

You are talking about over spending,spending too much,I'm not. We need better quality to compete,better quality requires spending,are you saying we should not buy any players?.

 

Personally I don't believe in that statement as it gives you an excuse for failure and lowering you're expectations now. No we should not go splattering millions everywhere but the far future begins today. What time line is this long term gain? How can we measure where we are in this long term gain if we are still failing? We need to do both. We need to make improvements that allows us to challenge for Europe next season. We also have to put a long term plan in place bringing scouting and youth coaching up to a level that could possibly make us self sufficient but we must not forget that there are very few clubs playing in the top of Europe that relies totally on there own youth scheme.

The long term gain thing is like a player waiting for the ball to come to him instead of moving towards the ball to get it in my eyes a lot of the time it never reaches you.

 

Fair enough. I'm certainly not saying we shouldn't sign anyone--I don't see how anyone could defend that position! I just think it's unrealistic to expect a complete 'clear-out'. I don't think we have the money. Moreover, I don't think it's necessary. I think we have a base squad that is average, or decent at best, which we can build on by acquiring better players. I honestly think the manager is key: get a decent coach and we see a completely different team (from the players we have).

 

I don't necessarily agree that the highest paid squad wins the league. The best team wins the league, but that doesn't necessarily require huge expenditure. Barcelona developed an exceptional team barely spending a penny. I agree with the 'stepping stone' type situation where you have to upgrade your team to progress, but I think that system in perpetuity is unsustainable. We should improve the side by spending, but we should also be putting more emphasis on Scouting, Youth Development and coaching the players we have. We got into this situation because we wanted to outspend Celtic, which was pure hubris; and we have fallen for it. It's time to put more emphasis on the long-term aspects of squad development.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Rousseau

[Ser Barristan Selmy 222]

I don't think it does. The majority can play a role--I'm not suggesting they can compete with Celtic at all. I think there is a half-decent base there, which with some additions can challenge for top 6 or second. The squad needs improved. I just think, in our current situation, a complete rebuild is unrealistic. I would certainly want a Abramovich-style rebuild but I doubt it'll happen. We must build on what we have.

Who are these players you want to keep? 'Challenging for top 6'...cmon. I don't doubt our current squad could challenge for top 6 but if that's our aspirations then the players will be playing in an empty stadium.

 

Perhaps we should have, but it's not as easy as that. Man Utd had the biggest wage bill, does that mean they should have romped the Premier League. However, whereas many have been blaming the players--and to an extent they should be blamed because they haven't performed well enough--I was suggesting the main problem was the management.

Man Utd have two teams spending very similarly to them and several others who also spend a fortune.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Ser Barristan Selmy

[Tannochsidebear 2,429]

I agree with the two premises: (1) we have a better standard of player; and (2) we have under-performed. However, I disagree with your conclusion. It does not necessarily follow that they are inherently not good enough--form is temporary, class is permanent etc. I believe a better manager can get better things from them. Secondly, money may indeed buy us a better calibre of player, but it doesn't then follow that they should romp to the title. I think we disagree on the basis of our failure. You imply that it's the players fault entirely, whereas I believe the fault lies with the management. Stories abound in football of poor sides being miraculously transformed into decent sides with a change of manager.

 

 

 

I'm not disputing that, but I am stating that it can't be done without some serious expenditure (£35 Million in 1998-99). That sort of expenditure is wholly unrealistic in our current situation. The rebuilds you reference were forced because of retirements and contract cancellations. At this juncture we have a 'basic' squad and I think it would be naive, foolish and presumptuous to suggest we should be gutting the squad. I'm not denying it needs improving, simply added to, or refined. (And, actually on both occasions we won the league because there was no challenge--John Barnes and East Stirling!) Again, your opinion that the players have had their chance is based on our fundamental disagreement which I outlined above (on the basis of our failure).

 

 

 

Yes, I agree we should be beating Motherwell; mainly because, as you said, we have the momentum, but it is not a certainty. I was suggesting your expectations in general are out of date, with regards to our league performance, not the Motherwell play-off game. Even with marginally better players with bigger wages, it doesn't then follow that we should be romping away with the league. Again, I think it's the management that should take the majority of the blame.

 

Oh, yes absolutely! Keeping Jig was an error!!

 

I place an awful lot of the blame for this season at the hands of our three managers. But the fact remains that these players under-achieved under 3 managers in the one season, so the majority of the blame lies with the players, of course it does. There are certain players that have emerged from this season with their reputations enhanced - MacLeod, Murdoch, McGregor, Hardie (what little game time he got!). That the others have played well below how we know they can comes down first and foremost to themselves underperforming when they cross the white line.

 

We can rebuild a squad of mostly freebies with the odd small transfer fee and be easily the second best squad in the top flight next season IF we scout and recruit properly. Our wage structure will allow that to happen. It is up to our board and new manager to do so in the right fashion.