The Herald-Football biggest contributor to Scotland's sectarianism

[Thinker 887]

It's obviously a bit much to say that denominational education turns children into bigots, but I definitely think it's the case that it creates the divisions and differences in beliefs that bigotry is rooted in.

 

My best pal up until I was about 10 was the kid across the street - I don't think separation at primary school age made too much of a difference. When we both went to secondary school we drifted apart until we were about 17 or 18 when (both being total nerds) our paths crossed again and we spent a lot of time playing computer games, nintendo and stuff like that together. We were still good mates and got on really well, but the peer pressure of the RC secondary school he attended had most definitely influenced his attitudes. In the 7 or 8 years when we hadn't been hanging out together he had become (shock-horror!) an avid celtic fan - where previously he had a lack of interest or knowledge in football to the point of it being embarrassing for him (not knowing who played for Scotland etc.) I suppose that change is self-explanatory - you adopt the interests of your classmates in order to fit in.

 

Obviously, that's no big deal, but he had also adopted, for presumably similar reasons to his football affiliation, a fairly cookie-cutter set of political opinions - Pro Irish-Republican, anti-royalism etc. TBF, since the town I grew up in was far from cosmopolitan and the Secondary school I attended was effectively the Protestant school, I'd developed some proto-Sectarian attitudes that certainly didn't come from my parents (fairly innocuous ones - "the pope" was regularly the punch-line for off-colour jokes amongst my school friends for example.)

 

I'd argue that increased differences in football affiliation and political attitudes (to Britain/Ireland mainly) are both effects of segregated schooling (pressure from a different set of peers during formative years) and whilst we all ought to grow out of that when we leave school, it's inevitable that some of us won't. So would the Catholic/Protestant divide exist in the West of Scotland if we all went to the same schools? I'm convinced it would be much less pronounced if we did.

Edited February 23, 2015 by Thinker

[JohnMc 2,759]

I don't remember coming across any anti-Semitism at school despite there being a lot of Jewish kids there, but I do remember some anti-RC sectarianism, and there were practically no RCs at the school.

 

 

 

Does the home environment have an influence as to whether someone becomes a bigot? Of course it does.

Will mixing with people on a daily basis and becoming their friend have an influence as to whether someone becomes a bigot? Of course it does.

 

Both have an influence and I just can't accept that separate schools has no influence on bigotry. The level of it is up to each individual person, but it seems crzy to me to deny that it's irrelevant.

 

 

 

 

I'm not saying that it does.

 

 

 

It's a lot less of an issue than it was 30-40 year ago. More mixed marriages, more kids mixing at school and have friends of different religions, more RCs going to non-denom schools has all helped, although I wouldn't say that this is the sole cause.

 

Here's my problem with this. RC schools are fairly commonplace in many countries fairly equivalent with Scotland. England, Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand for example all have RC schools yet don't seem to have that cultural tension we do. These places aren't utopian societies though, they have issues regarding race for example, often quite serious ones. Similarly gay people will experience prejudice in society despite full integration. Woman will generally experience significantly more prejudice and discrimination during their life despite schools being co-ed and all of us having mothers.

 

I've an acquaintance to attended Shawlands Academy at a time of significant racial tension, culminating in a riot along race lines after school that made the national news.

 

I've yet to read any actual evidence that proves separate schooling has a significant influence on this subject. Poor education does though. Poverty and unemployment are often factors, economic issues are usually at the heart of much social tension.

 

I just think the school thing is an easy blame, it suggests the perpetrators are somehow victims of circumstance.

[JohnMc 2,759]

It's obviously a bit much to say that denominational education turns children into bigots, but I definitely think it's the case that it creates the divisions and differences in beliefs that bigotry is rooted in.

 

My best pal up until I was about 10 was the kid across the street - I don't think separation at primary school age made too much of a difference. When we both went to secondary school we drifted apart until we were about 17 or 18 when (both being total nerds) our paths crossed again and we spent a lot of time playing computer games, nintendo and stuff like that together. We were still good mates and got on really well, but the peer pressure of the RC secondary school he attended had most definitely influenced his attitudes. In the 7 or 8 years when we hadn't been hanging out together he had become (shock-horror!) an avid celtic fan - where previously he had a lack of interest or knowledge in football to the point of it being embarrassing for him (not knowing who played for Scotland etc.) I suppose that change is self-explanatory - you adopt the interests of your classmates in order to fit in.

 

Obviously, that's no big deal, but he had also adopted, for presumably similar reasons to his football affiliation, a fairly cookie-cutter set of political opinions - Pro Irish-Republican, anti-royalism etc. TBF, since the town I grew up in was far from cosmopolitan and the Secondary school I attended was effectively the Protestant school, I'd developed some proto-Sectarian attitudes that certainly didn't come from my parents (fairly innocuous ones - "the pope" was regularly the punch-line for off-colour jokes amongst my school friends for example.)

 

I'd argue that increased differences in football affiliation and political attitudes (to Britain/Ireland mainly) are both effects of segregated schooling (pressure from a different set of peers during formative years) and whilst we all ought to grow out of that when we leave school, it's inevitable that some of us won't. So would the Catholic/Protestant divide exist in the West of Scotland if we all went to the same schools? I'm convinced it would be much less pronounced if we did.

 

A childhood suspicion of people who go to a different school is fairly normal. Retaining that suspicion into adult life isn't. The argument that because a small number of people aren't able to evolve their thoughts from that of a 14 year old isn't a good enough reason to abolish an entire schooling system. That's the kind of thinking that has woman wearing burqas because some men might not be able to prevent themselves from carrying out rape.

I'm convinced there would be far less violent crime if we banned all alcohol. Assaults and murder rates would plummet, A&E departments would see admissions drop and some families would benefit from having sober parents in them. But I amn't advocating prohibition because a number of people are incapable of knowing when they've had enough.

 

I know you aren't saying any of the above, but the argument is the same.

[Thinker 887]

A childhood suspicion of people who go to a different school is fairly normal. Retaining that suspicion into adult life isn't. The argument that because a small number of people aren't able to evolve their thoughts from that of a 14 year old isn't a good enough reason to abolish an entire schooling system. That's the kind of thinking that has woman wearing burqas because some men might not be able to prevent themselves from carrying out rape.

I'm convinced there would be far less violent crime if we banned all alcohol. Assaults and murder rates would plummet, A&E departments would see admissions drop and some families would benefit from having sober parents in them. But I amn't advocating prohibition because a number of people are incapable of knowing when they've had enough.

 

I know you aren't saying any of the above, but the argument is the same.

 

I wouldn't ever suggest that a system of schooling should be abolished - but is that really the correct description of what RC schools are? A system? If parents want their kids to be schooled in a particular way then absolutely they should have the right to choose, but all schooling "systems" should be open to everyone without reference to their religion (or any other irrelevant trait). Would it be okay to apply this idea to any other kind of institution - that certain of them are only for people of a particular religion?

 

I suppose I approach this whole subject from a negative starting point because I'm fairly anti-religious in outlook and don't agree with the concept drumming religion into children too young to properly question what they're being taught. To paraphrase the school superintendent from The Simpsons, "God has no place within education, just like facts don't have a place within an organized religion."

[JohnMc 2,759]

I wouldn't ever suggest that a system of schooling should be abolished - but is that really the correct description of what RC schools are? A system? If parents want their kids to be schooled in a particular way then absolutely they should have the right to choose, but all schooling "systems" should be open to everyone without reference to their religion (or any other irrelevant trait). Would it be okay to apply this idea to any other kind of institution - that certain of them are only for people of a particular religion?

 

I suppose I approach this whole subject from a negative starting point because I'm fairly anti-religious in outlook and don't agree with the concept drumming religion into children too young to properly question what they're being taught. To paraphrase the school superintendent from The Simpsons, "God has no place within education, just like facts don't have a place within an organized religion."

 

Hah, good line.

I'm not advocating them, I just don't think they are to blame for sectarianism. Whether it's the state's job to provide them is a different argument and one I don't think we'd be miles apart on.

[Bluedell 5,627]

Here's my problem with this. RC schools are fairly commonplace in many countries fairly equivalent with Scotland. England, Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand for example all have RC schools yet don't seem to have that cultural tension we do. These places aren't utopian societies though, they have issues regarding race for example, often quite serious ones. Similarly gay people will experience prejudice in society despite full integration. Woman will generally experience significantly more prejudice and discrimination during their life despite schools being co-ed and all of us having mothers.

 

I've an acquaintance to attended Shawlands Academy at a time of significant racial tension, culminating in a riot along race lines after school that made the national news

 

Protestant homes are fairly commonplace in many countries fairly equivalent with Scotland. England, Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand for example all have Protestant homes yet don't seem to have that cultural tension we do.

 

Sorry, mate, but I don't see your points as particularly good one in this post. I'm not trying to argue that there can be no bigotry if people are integrated at school. I could quite easily come up with examples of someone who comes from a bad home who isn't bigoted but that wouldn't prove my point anymore than your examples disproves mine. It isn't black and white as you seem to be trying to make out.

 

I

've yet to read any actual evidence that proves separate schooling has a significant influence on this subject.

 

It took me 2 minutes to find this quote in a report

 

Education - and the effect that having separate Catholic schools in Scotland has on sectarianism in Glasgow - was discussed in a number of the focus groups. In general, participants tended to highlight the dangers of creating a division along religious lines by

separating different groups of children into different types of school.

[JohnMc 2,759]

Protestant homes are fairly commonplace in many countries fairly equivalent with Scotland. England, Australia, Canada, the US, New Zealand for example all have Protestant homes yet don't seem to have that cultural tension we do.

 

Sorry, mate, but I don't see your points as particularly good one in this post. I'm not trying to argue that there can be no bigotry if people are integrated at school. I could quite easily come up with examples of someone who comes from a bad home who isn't bigoted but that wouldn't prove my point anymore than your examples disproves mine. It isn't black and white as you seem to be trying to make out.

 

My point is why don't these countries have the same problem as Scotland does? You said this on the first page of this thread

They keep expounding this lie but it doesn't become more believable, no matter how often they repeat it.

 

Offering one section of the community schooling in line with their religion and separating one religion is apartheid.

 

Separating kids and keeping them separated throughout the whole of their school life can only lead to differences. These differences are far more relevant than football teams. The engraining that there are differences and making sure that these differences are recognised every single day of their school life makes far more of an impression than the team they support.

 

End educational apartheid and you will make massive strides towards reducing religious bigotry.

 

You were the 3rd poster to highlight schools, nearly half of all replies at that point. My point is that the existence of RC schools in Scotland isn't the reason we have sectarianism. RC schools exist in comparable societies where no sectarianism exists.

 

RC schools don't cause sectarianism, there is no evidence to back that up. The paragraph quoted above says focus groups think it's the case, that doesn't mean it is the case. Focus groups are simply sounding boards for commonly held beliefs, they don't provide empirical evidence.

 

The people who chose to sing 'No pope of Rome' on Friday night don't get to blame RC schools for that. That's a dereliction of personal responsibility. Fans of Thistle, who went to the same schools as us, managed to get through their match at the weekend without a blast of that song. As did every other club from the west of Scotland, except us.

[der Berliner 3,747]

RC schools don't cause sectarianism, there is no evidence to back that up.

 

Any sort of religiously motived school is cause for sectarianism. Maybe not like what you see in Ulster or the West of Scotland, but it sure is. It plants the root of being different in anyone and it does at times not need much to get that flickering flame burning.

 

The people who chose to sing 'No pope of Rome' on Friday night don't get to blame RC schools for that. That's a dereliction of personal responsibility. Fans of Thistle, who went to the same schools as us, managed to get through their match at the weekend without a blast of that song. As did every other club from the west of Scotland, except us.

 

I would not been that quick here ...

 

Student convicted under controversial anti-sectarian laws but sheriff says he should not have been dragged into court

19 Jan 2014 07:36

 

ADAM RICHMOND walked away from court without a criminal record after a sheriff gave him an absolute discharge, prompting criticism of the law that led to his arrest.

 

A STUDENT held after chanting abuse about the Pope and the Queen at a football match has been convicted under controversial anti-sectarian laws.

 

But Adam Richmond, 19, walked away without a criminal record after a sheriff said he should not have been dragged into court.

 

The case has sparked a fresh wave of criticism over the Government’s Offensive Behaviour at Football and Threatening Communications Act, driven into place two years ago after a bad-tempered Old Firm match and designed to clamp down on sectarian abuse at games and online.

 

Football fans, lawyers and civil liberty campaigners have branded the legislation unnecessary and confused after cases have been questioned when they reached court.

 

Richmond was arrested after police heard him singing “F*** your Pope and f*** your Queen” as Partick Thistle played Celtic at Firhill in October.

 

Thistle fans sing the song to distance themselves from Rangers and Celtic.

 

At Glasgow Sheriff Court, he was found guilty by Sheriff Norman Ritchie QC of behaviour likely to incite public disorder by singing sectarian and offensive remarks.

 

But he told the teenager: “You are not the sort of person who creates the problem and needs this legislation.”

 

He then discharged him absolutely. That means Richmond, from Penilee, Glasgow, has no criminal record despite being found guilty.

 

Yesterday, solicitor advocate Chris Fyffe said: “I struggle to see the point of this Act. One of the major concerns was it had an extremely long reach and was very vague in its terms.

 

“This seems to be being borne out to a certain extent by some of these decisions, suggesting there is a reluctance on the part of the sheriffs to find one person in a crowd of 3000 guilty.

 

“Because of its vagueness, you can have a situation theoretically where somebody is saying something which is, on the face of it, offensive – it doesn’t have to be sectarian or racist and people do shout things at football matches – so there’s a potential there for criminalising football fans for what they have been doing for the past 150 years.

 

“These cases seem to be reflecting the concern a lot of lawyers – and not just defence lawyers but sheriffs as well – are having regarding this legislation.

 

“What it really seems to be doing is focusing on football behaviour as opposed to what many people see

as the real concern, which is sectarianism in Scotland.

 

“It seems we are criminalising people who are letting off steam in a relatively secure environment.”

 

Product design student Richmond was told he was a credible witness until he was asked about singing the song, when his evidence turned “decidedly lukewarm” and his confidence “evaporated”.

 

The Thistle song is supposed to celebrate the club’s neutrality from Old Firm bigotry with the line: “We hate the boys in royal blue, we hate the boys in emerald green, f*** your Pope and f*** your Queen.”

 

Richmond told the court that the song is only sung when Thistle play Celtic or Rangers and the lyrics represent taking a stand against religion in football.

 

Richmond, who has been going to games with his dad since he was six, said: “To me, from my understanding of the song, I don’t see how it can be offensive.”

 

But anti-sectarianism charity Nil By Mouth said they hoped that Richmond had learned his lesson.

 

Campaigns director David Scott said: “The use of this type of language at a match is no longer acceptable no matter what the context.

 

“Fans at all league clubs are warned on the back of their ticket and before the start of games that offensive singing or chanting is not allowed.

 

“Clearly, if this man wants to keep religion out of football, he should not have been singing what he did.”

 

When we contacted Richmond at his home, he declined to comment.

 

But a family friend said: “Adam has never been in trouble in his life. This has been hanging over for him for months and has been a terrible strain.

 

“He was the only one arrested even though he was in a group of about 300 fans.

 

“Adam has been told he will not have to declare this as a conviction when he goes for a job, which is a real relief.

 

“This is a song that the Thistle fans have been singing for years without any previous complaints.

 

“There is no intention of causing offence. All it really does is poke fun at Celtic and Rangers fans.”

 

Partick Thistle declined to comment on the case.

 

DR

Edited February 25, 2015 by der Berliner

[The Real PapaBear 0]

My point is why don't these countries have the same problem as Scotland does? You said this on the first page of this thread

 

 

You were the 3rd poster to highlight schools, nearly half of all replies at that point. My point is that the existence of RC schools in Scotland isn't the reason we have sectarianism. RC schools exist in comparable societies where no sectarianism exists.

 

RC schools don't cause sectarianism, there is no evidence to back that up. The paragraph quoted above says focus groups think it's the case, that doesn't mean it is the case. Focus groups are simply sounding boards for commonly held beliefs, they don't provide empirical evidence.

 

The people who chose to sing 'No pope of Rome' on Friday night don't get to blame RC schools for that. That's a dereliction of personal responsibility. Fans of Thistle, who went to the same schools as us, managed to get through their match at the weekend without a blast of that song. As did every other club from the west of Scotland, except us.

 

John, allow me to ask a couple of questions here.

 

First you cite comparable countries to Scotland, can you give an example of any of those countries where 20% of the population is hived off into seperate schooling at the age of 5? Second, you state, a priori, that RC schools don't cause sectarianism; do you have any evidence for this assertion?

 

I think there is a fundamental flaw in your claim and it is one I can best highlight be asking the following question (it's not rhetorical and I would be interested in an answer); If you believe that a separate schooling system for Catholics does not cause the division in which the seeds of sectarianism grow -and note, I am not ascribing blame - , would you be equally happy to have separate schooling systems for Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Seventh Day Adventists and indeed atheists?

Would you, to take it to its logical conclusion, have separate schools based on political, societal or moral priniciples? After all, why should religion be the only construct which determines how we educate our children? Should we have schools for Socialists and Conservatives, Nationalists and Unionists, Marxists and Libertarians, Feminists and Fundamentalists?

 

And if not, why not? Following your argument we should be able to divide our nation's children into whatever sub-groups we want to with no effect on the cohesion or harmony of society.

 

Except, that's not how people work, is it?

[barca72 440]

My point is why don't these countries have the same problem as Scotland does? You said this on the first page of this thread

 

 

You were the 3rd poster to highlight schools, nearly half of all replies at that point. My point is that the existence of RC schools in Scotland isn't the reason we have sectarianism. RC schools exist in comparable societies where no sectarianism exists.

 

RC schools don't cause sectarianism, there is no evidence to back that up. The paragraph quoted above says focus groups think it's the case, that doesn't mean it is the case. Focus groups are simply sounding boards for commonly held beliefs, they don't provide empirical evidence.

 

The people who chose to sing 'No pope of Rome' on Friday night don't get to blame RC schools for that. That's a dereliction of personal responsibility. Fans of Thistle, who went to the same schools as us, managed to get through their match at the weekend without a blast of that song. As did every other club from the west of Scotland, except us.

 

I have lived in three of the five countries you have highlighted, as well as Scotland. All of them have separate RC schooling. Some of them have had a huge percentage of RCs within some of the communities.

The only country I have lived in where I felt there was a sectarian problem is Scotland. I was born and bred on the west coast of Scotland, but I understand there is also a large concentration in Edinburgh, Dundee and Aberdeen.

A large concentration of what ? Irish RCs.

Now I don't say that is the definitive answer as to why Scotland is blighted with sectarianism, but it is an observation.

Another observation I have made is that I have never seen such a concentration of biased media anywhere, as that which is on display in Scotland. Go figure.

 

The other point you made which I'd like to comment on is - "The people who chose to sing 'No pope of Rome' on Friday night don't get to blame RC schools for that." I don't think the people who sing NPOR or TBB are attempting to blame the RC schools for anything. I think they are singing these songs because they enjoy singing them, which is the same reason their counterparts in the east end of the city sing their prohibited sectarian IRA songs.

Now I'm talking solely about the songs and chants here and I wonder if either set of supporters are truly outraged with one another, or is this a faux crisis manufactured by the media. I say that because on Friday I could hear very clearly all of the songs that the Rangers' support were singing on the BT feed. I suspect because the trackside microphones were set very high - a lot higher than usual.

I mention that because tonight I watched the Man. City vs Barcelona game and I could hear the crowd in the background making chants but I could not make out clearly what they were saying. This is the normal audio level for most football matches. Again, go figure.