The Herald-Football biggest contributor to Scotland's sectarianism

[Bluedell 5,627]

My point is why don't these countries have the same problem as Scotland does?

 

There are many reasons as you well know. Or are you trying to suggest that as you claim that the sole reason for sectarianism is what happens at home that Scottish parents and homes are far worse than the homes and parents in these countries?

 

You were the 3rd poster to highlight schools, nearly half of all replies at that point. My point is that the existence of RC schools in Scotland isn't the reason we have sectarianism. RC schools exist in comparable societies where no sectarianism exists.

And there are bad parents and bad homes and poor environments in these societies, so I don't really see how your point stands up.

 

RC schools don't cause sectarianism, there is no evidence to back that up. The paragraph quoted above says focus groups think it's the case, that doesn't mean it is the case. Focus groups are simply sounding boards for commonly held beliefs, they don't provide empirical evidence.

 

It's easy to claim that there's no evidence if you ignore evidence that's presented. I'd look for more but you'd just dismiss that too.

 

The people who chose to sing 'No pope of Rome' on Friday night don't get to blame RC schools for that. That's a dereliction of personal responsibility. Fans of Thistle, who went to the same schools as us, managed to get through their match at the weekend without a blast of that song. As did every other club from the west of Scotland, except us.

 

So following your argument you're claiming that the parents of Rangers fans are far worse than the parents of Thistle fans?

[JohnMc 2,759]

John, allow me to ask a couple of questions here.

 

First you cite comparable countries to Scotland, can you give an example of any of those countries where 20% of the population is hived off into seperate schooling at the age of 5? Second, you state, a priori, that RC schools don't cause sectarianism; do you have any evidence for this assertion?

 

I think there is a fundamental flaw in your claim and it is one I can best highlight be asking the following question (it's not rhetorical and I would be interested in an answer); If you believe that a separate schooling system for Catholics does not cause the division in which the seeds of sectarianism grow -and note, I am not ascribing blame - , would you be equally happy to have separate schooling systems for Muslims, Hindus, Jews, Seventh Day Adventists and indeed atheists?

Would you, to take it to its logical conclusion, have separate schools based on political, societal or moral priniciples? After all, why should religion be the only construct which determines how we educate our children? Should we have schools for Socialists and Conservatives, Nationalists and Unionists, Marxists and Libertarians, Feminists and Fundamentalists?

 

And if not, why not? Following your argument we should be able to divide our nation's children into whatever sub-groups we want to with no effect on the cohesion or harmony of society.

 

Except, that's not how people work, is it?

 

18% of children in Australia attend a 'catholic' school, either private or public funded, RCs make up 25% of the Australian population. So that's fairly similar to Scotland. In England 12% of children attend an RC school so a bit lower than here. Neither country have any significant issues similar to Scotland.

 

I've tried to make it clear in this thread that I don't actually support RC schools or any specific religious school if state funded. Scotland already has two Jewish primary schools and three Episcopalian schools in the state sector and will almost certainly have a Muslim primary in the near future. I'm not in favour of them and don't support their growth. However, I don't believe they are the biggest factor in the existence of 'sectarianism' in Scotland. Churches should provide religion and schools should provide education, parents can decide how much of either their children should partake in.

 

I only posted in this thread because one of the first replies said they "gave up at it's not the schools" followed shortly after by other posters describing RC schools as "apartheid". Apart from feeling quite strongly that it's an inappropriate term to use I also feel too many Rangers supporters use this excuse to explain why some in our support and in society at large still cling to sectarian songs, chants and attitudes.

 

The report in the opening post was compiled by academics over a period of time using resources probably not available to most Gersnet posters. The report makes some interesting points. Firstly that 'sectarianism' isn't that big a problem despite most people thinking it is and that you are far more likely to experience prejudice if you are black, Asian or gay. Blacks, Asians and gays don't have separate schools so I'm assuming we're not explaining those prejudices on schooling.

 

I'll try and reply to everyone who replied to me, but it'll be later tonight or tomorrow before I'll have time.

[Frankie 8,570]

Some interesting contributions guys. Thanks for handing the debate with respect and facts.

[the gunslinger 3,366]

I could follow this line of reasoning if I hadn't seen primary school girls outside the local Catholic primary singing about the IRA killing nacho novo a few years back.

 

The problem may not be rc schooling but it is our rc schools.

 

We have an alcohol ban because we have an issue we also need to ban seperate schooling because we have a problem.

 

What goes on elsewhere is irrelevant.

[Bluedell 5,627]

18% of children in Australia attend a 'catholic' school, either private or public funded, RCs make up 25% of the Australian population. So that's fairly similar to Scotland. In England 12% of children attend an RC school so a bit lower than here. Neither country have any significant issues similar to Scotland.

 

Obviously the relationship with Ireland and the level of historic immigration is something that Australia or even England have to any extent.

 

I only posted in this thread because one of the first replies said they "gave up at it's not the schools" followed shortly after by other posters describing RC schools as "apartheid". Apart from feeling quite strongly that it's an inappropriate term to use I also feel too many Rangers supporters use this excuse to explain why some in our support and in society at large still cling to sectarian songs, chants and attitudes.

 

There's a difference between sectarianism and the singing at football games, particularly something like TBB. There's also a difference between giving a reason for something and using it as an "excuse."

 

The report in the opening post was compiled by academics over a period of time using resources probably not available to most Gersnet posters.

 

It depends on the agenda and terms of reference of the report . RCs for example are hardly likely to say something negative about schooling when they are the minority who have access to a choice unlike the majority. Surveys can often come up with the result that they want it to, and I'm sceptical about its objectivity.

 

Would an SNP government really want a report to come out that said bigotry was caused by schooling, which would force them to examine the place of separate schooling for one section of the community in the type of progressive society that the SNP purport to want, and by doing so lose them a huge chunk of their support?

 

Politically it would be suicide and they would have taken steps to ensure that the result was as they wanted.

 

Firstly that 'sectarianism' isn't that big a problem despite most people thinking it is and that you are far more likely to experience prejudice if you are black, Asian or gay. Blacks, Asians and gays don't have separate schools so I'm assuming we're not explaining those prejudices on schooling.

 

I'd suggest that there would be a lot more prejudice if they did go to separate schools.

[Bluedell 5,627]

I'm going to assume you aren't a bigot Bluedell. I've been reading your posts on various forums and blogs for a long time and you've never given me that impression, indeed I'd say the opposite.

 

Reminds me of the debates I used to have with Timahoy back in the good old days, mate.

[aweebluesoandso 290]

Children should not be separated along religious grounds end of. Also religion should only have a minor role in a child's education. I thought all this was sorted in the reformation?