League Cup Draw : Falkirk v Rangers/ICT (plus seeding talk)

[buster. 5,186]

Are Rangers seeded 23rd based on actual results or is it because they wiped our previous record? I struggle to believe we're the 23rd team based on (say) the last 5 season's results.

 

The point is that giving us 23rd would be skewing the seeding anyway, and the top 8 is a correction which actually *increases* the "sporting integrity" of the competition.

 

I think too many people are totally forgetting what the seeding system is really all about and instead getting bogged down in the flawed methods...

 

It's not flawed, 23rd represents our league position (ie. 23rd in Scottish Football in 2013/14) and is how they have been seeding the competition for years.

 

 

ps. Bert Kassie doesn't work for the SPFL:)

[Tannochsidebear 2,406]

Clearly the hurting tims with typewriters were desperate to see us paired with either their beloved hoops or perhaps sheepy or united in order to stop our gloating at their heroes European disaster, and the format of the draw has denied them the chance. They obviously think we are a good bet to beat the leaders of their league and are obviously keen to put as many obstacles in our way to prevent us winning anything as they can.

 

I wish our fans were as confident of success as our enemies are. Perhaps they should be forced to watch us play a few games, then they wouldnt bother what seeding we got!

 

In most sports like Tennis, Golf (matchplay), Champions League football (qualifiers), seedings are announced at the outset and if a seed is beaten, the victors rightly take their place in the draw. The draw is not re-computed to ensure that a victor stays unseeded and therefore does not benefit from their victory in the following rounds.

 

More hot air and deflection from our detractors, long may they suffer in their pain.

[calscot 0]

It's not flawed, 23rd represents our league position (ie. 23rd in Scottish Football in 2013/14) and is how they have been seeding the competition for years.

 

Just because they have used it for years doesn't mean it's not flawed. I think that's a very flawed way of doing it especially as it doesn't take into account a load of anomalies with Rangers being a highly exceptional one.

 

I think you've shown exactly why it is flawed as in Rangers case, it doesn't give a fair representation of the likelihood of a team getting to a specific stage in the competition.

 

The whole point of seeding is to keep the better teams separated until the later stages and avoid things like the two best teams playing in an early round and therefore one of them being eliminated so early. This tries to lead to the scenario where the possibility of advancement to later rounds is more correlated to your sporting ability.

 

They also attempt to prevent one competitor from having an easy route to the final while another has a very difficult one, knocking out all the top rankings on the way. In something like a tennis competition this could be highly crucial as one player could have a series of very long and hard 5 set games against great players, while the other has short, easy straight set wins against lesser players, and therefore he could win the final due to having a lot more energy left than his opposition, while being say the 8th best player for the competition.

 

Therefore the primary goal of seeding should be to accurately rate the competitors in order of potential.

 

However, as seeding by default influences the progression of teams (and so for sporting and financial aims) it also has the add complication in that it needs to be objective and transparent.

 

This creates a very complex problem and so in most sports is usually simplified to base it on recent, past performance or current rankings. Neither is ideal.

 

The League Cup has obviously chosen a different past performance criteria and as you say, uses last year's league position. As shown above, when it comes to Rangers, this is a highly flawed strategy as our league position in no way reflects our cup progression potential as we are not there on sporting merit.

 

Some competitions take other factors account and adjust the rankings accordingly by committee, which is why Andy Murray was rightly seeded above his world ranking for Wimbledon as he had performed better in that competition which has a different environment than similar competitions.

 

UEFA realise that in Europe you may be from a high quality league and so not have a recent record as you haven't qualified and so adjust the rankings based on your league's performance in their competitions.

 

Basing rankings for knockout competitions based on the last few years performances can also be flawed as you could be knocked out early by the best team in the competition - but then in circular fashion, that is exactly why the seedings are there to start with, and also why the more accurately they represent the potential, the better they work.

 

So in the end, all the SPFL have done is inadvertently made their competition a lot fairer and more balanced which is why no-one can honestly pull out the "sporting integrity" card.

[buster. 5,186]

Just because they have used it for years doesn't mean it's not flawed. I think that's a very flawed way of doing it especially as it doesn't take into account a load of anomalies with Rangers being a highly exceptional one.

 

I think you've shown exactly why it is flawed as in Rangers case, it doesn't give a fair representation of the likelihood of a team getting to a specific stage in the competition.

 

The whole point of seeding is to keep the better teams separated until the later stages and avoid things like the two best teams playing in an early round and therefore one of them being eliminated so early. This tries to lead to the scenario where the possibility of advancement to later rounds is more correlated to your sporting ability.

 

They also attempt to prevent one competitor from having an easy route to the final while another has a very difficult one, knocking out all the top rankings on the way. In something like a tennis competition this could be highly crucial as one player could have a series of very long and hard 5 set games against great players, while the other has short, easy straight set wins against lesser players, and therefore he could win the final due to having a lot more energy left than his opposition, while being say the 8th best player for the competition.

 

Therefore the primary goal of seeding should be to accurately rate the competitors in order of potential.

 

However, as seeding by default influences the progression of teams (and so for sporting and financial aims) it also has the add complication in that it needs to be objective and transparent.

 

This creates a very complex problem and so in most sports is usually simplified to base it on recent, past performance or current rankings. Neither is ideal.

 

The League Cup has obviously chosen a different past performance criteria and as you say, uses last year's league position. As shown above, when it comes to Rangers, this is a highly flawed strategy as our league position in no way reflects our cup progression potential as we are not there on sporting merit.

 

Some competitions take other factors account and adjust the rankings accordingly by committee, which is why Andy Murray was rightly seeded above his world ranking for Wimbledon as he had performed better in that competition which has a different environment than similar competitions.

 

UEFA realise that in Europe you may be from a high quality league and so not have a recent record as you haven't qualified and so adjust the rankings based on your league's performance in their competitions.

 

Basing rankings for knockout competitions based on the last few years performances can also be flawed as you could be knocked out early by the best team in the competition - but then in circular fashion, that is exactly why the seedings are there to start with, and also why the more accurately they represent the potential, the better they work.

 

So in the end, all the SPFL have done is inadvertently made their competition a lot fairer and more balanced which is why no-one can honestly pull out the "sporting integrity" card.

 

The long and the short of it is that there doesn't exist a way of seeding that isn't exempt of flaws.

 

If seeding has to be employed in this case, I don't see as unreasonable the use of league positions.

The fact that we are 23rd is a fact and we as a club simply have to deal with such.

Although in the end we got to 8th because of circumstances.

[Rangersitis 0]

The long and the short of it is that there doesn't exist a way of seeding that isn't exempt of flaws.

 

If seeding has to be employed in this case, I don't see as unreasonable the use of league positions.

The fact that we are 23rd is a fact and we as a club simply have to deal with such.

Although in the end we got to 8th.

 

Aye, imagine the organisation which runs the league using league placings for seedings.

[calscot 0]

The long and the short of it is that there doesn't exist a way of seeding that isn't exempt of flaws.

 

As you can see I pretty much agree. But that shouldn't stop us from making sure it's not a bit silly.

 

If seeding has to be employed in this case, I don't see as unreasonable the use of league positions.

 

In some ways it's reasonable, but when it comes to the anomaly of Rangers, it's very obviously unreasonable.

 

The fact that we are 23rd is a fact and we as a club simply have to deal with such.

 

Whiich is what we have been doing.

 

Although in the end we got to 8th because of circumstances.

 

That's also a fact which the other clubs have to deal with.

 

It's the bitching about it that I think is again, unreasonable. However, the poor planning that led to the controversy is worthy of criticism.

 

As someone pointed out, in other sports the whole draw is done at the beginning based on the individual seeding which removes this type of fudge. Football refuse to do this out of tradition as they are attached to the drama and human aspect of a draw for each round as well as the romance of the cup. I think they also like the potential for hot and cold balls - otherwise we'd probably be borrowing a national lottery machine.

 

With money and in particularly cashflows becoming more and more important, not for the prospering of clubs, but survival, perhaps they need a rethink. After all, if Rangers were able to play to their potential in the cups as lowly seeds, they could have been ravaging a few top clubs' income by putting them out of the cup early, while denying the odd smaller club a windfall that eases the strain.

[calscot 0]

Aye, imagine the organisation which runs the league using league placings for seedings.

 

What the organisation whose predecessors messed up their seeding system by messing with it as a sporting meritocracy?

 

Imagine deliberately dirtying your data and then using that data? Most scientists know about "outliers" and "artefacts".

[buster. 5,186]

It's the bitching about it that I think is again, unreasonable. However, the poor planning that led to the controversy is worthy of criticism.

 

 

As I said in the second post of this thread the media will always try and push this type of supposed controversy because it makes for easy journalism with many consumers anxious to jump on the bandwagon.

 

I don't know if it were poor planning as the circumstance was very forseeable.

It may or may not have simply been an imperfect but acceptable outcome for those involved.

[Rangersitis 0]

What the organisation whose predecessors messed up their seeding system by messing with it as a sporting meritocracy?

 

Imagine deliberately dirtying your data and then using that data? Most scientists know about "outliers" and "artefacts".

 

Yes, that organisation.

 

It doesn't matter how much you act the smart arse, you can't get away from the logic of league positions determining seeding for the following season's competition. Not organising the ties was the SPFL's big mistake.

[calscot 0]

Yes, that organisation.

 

It doesn't matter how much you act the smart arse, you can't get away from the logic of league positions determining seeding for the following season's competition. Not organising the ties was the SPFL's big mistake.

 

Wish people would quit the petty ad hominems...

 

It was poor logic to use it this season and last. I think it's obvious that you shouldn't knowingly mess up the calibration on a measuring instrument then blindly use it measure stuff. That's just illogical. If you can't recalibrate the instrument, you need to find another, more accurate one. Or introduce correction factors that give more accurate results.

 

As usual, they made more than one mistake, but interestingly, two wrongs may actually make a right in this case.