Born Under A Union Flag : A Response

[buster. 5,257]

Ask yourself this: why do you support Rangers?

 

For thousands of Rangers fans over many years, religion would have been what guided them to Rangers, and contrary to what many would have us believe, there's nothing wrong with this - not if we live in a free country.

 

Equally, Celtic drew in Catholics from all over Scotland because Celtic was widely perceived to be a Catholic club. In a free society, this is perfectly acceptable.

 

People run from this now, though, because society has changed and no-one wants to be accused of being a bigot - even though the choice of a football club where religion is clearly a factor does not automatically make someone a bigot.

 

Rangers is not as 'staunch' as it used to be, but to deny or even suggest that religious tribalism has not played a massive part in the long history of the club - and at another club just across the city - is utterly beyond comprehension.

 

Rangers has a Protestant tradition. It has long gone from within the club and it is eroding within the support, but it is still a factor today in drawing people to Ibrox.

 

Celtic has probably retained its identity internally more successfully than Rangers, and maybe within its support too.

 

Today, Celtic still looks to be Celtic-minded.

 

Rangers, however - within the club itself - has no identity at all.

 

The irony is that some of those who most push their apparent "staunchness", "loyalism" etc. are those who cosied up to those who have helped divorce the club further from it's 'traditions'.

 

Some for being not very bright, others for being led and others perhaps for their own ongoing interests, outwith or within groups.

[TheWee BlueDevil 0]

Indeed. Gail has strong opinions on this subject which is easily challenged. That brings to me why she dismisses our club's demographic despite her obvious intelligence. I find it strange though all in all honesty I haven't read the full chapter to gather the full context of her chapter.

I do find myself wondering how she can continue to square that circle.

 

I do fear the worst though. Who/where/what will I be/belong to/believe in??

 

Gone forever?

 

There will be no way back.

[Hildy 0]

The irony is that some of those who most push their apparent "staunchness", "loyalism" etc. are those who cosied up to those who have helped divorce the club further from it's 'traditions'.

 

Some for being not very bright, others for being led and others perhaps for their own ongoing interests, outwith or within groups.

It's a valid point, but it gets worse.

 

If people who cling to certain traditions are perceived to be hardline and uber, it is not just they who get marked down by more moderate mindsets - what they stand for gets tarnished too, and then change is accelerated as the more fundamentalist wing becomes marginalised.

 

The Protestant aspect of Rangers' past is undeniable, but in a rapidly changing world, it is going to be a far less visible part of the club's future. The traditionalist is going to have to come to terms with the more modern fan who is happy to support a team in blue, while he must understand that religious tribalism has played an almighty part in delivering Rangers - with an abundance of silverware - to where we are in the 21st century.

 

Denial of Rangers' Protestant tradition is akin to claiming that Celtic has been open to all since its first breath.

[D'Artagnan 173]

It's a valid point, but it gets worse.

 

If people who cling to certain traditions are perceived to be hardline and uber, it is not just they who get marked down by more moderate mindsets - what they stand for gets tarnished too, and then change is accelerated as the more fundamentalist wing becomes marginalised.

 

The Protestant aspect of Rangers' past is undeniable, but in a rapidly changing world, it is going to be a far less visible part of the club's future. The traditionalist is going to have to come to terms with the more modern fan who is happy to support a team in blue, while he must understand that religious tribalism has played an almighty part in delivering Rangers - with an abundance of silverware - to where we are in the 21st century.

 

Denial of Rangers' Protestant tradition is akin to claiming that Celtic has been open to all since its first breath.

 

In fairness to Gail Richardson Hildy - she doesn't deny it - but argues that it is very much part of our past.

 

My point in raising it, along with unionism & the monarchy was to counter her assertion that these values & beliefs have been projected onto the club by the fans themselves, which I certainly dont agree with.

 

I also struggle with her assertion that we are not a Unionist club, particularly given the symbolism on display which others have mentioned in this thread.

[Hildy 0]

In fairness to Gail Richardson Hildy - she doesn't deny it - but argues that it is very much part of our past.

 

My point in raising it' date=' along with unionism & the monarchy was to counter her assertion that these values & beliefs have been projected onto the club by the fans themselves, which I certainly dont agree with.

 

I struggle with her assertion that we are not a Unionist club, particularly given the symbolism on display which others have mentioned in this thread.[/quote']

In my experience, religious tribalism, more than a fondness for the monarchy and more than a belief in the Union, has been the most obvious and compelling attraction of Rangers. I also have to say that many of those Rangers fans who arrived at Rangers through their religious identity often had no time for the various organisations that might best be described as 'Orange'. Protestantism, certainly in the past, was a broad brush that encompassed many, but in Scotland, the Orange movement, once again, in my experience, only ever had limited appeal, and it has even less now.

 

We might be unionists and we might be monarchists, but above all, by a long distance, has been a shared religious tradition. Likewise at Celtic - a shared religious tradition has been a key part of that club's appeal.

[amms 0]

So, are Celtic a 'Unionist club'? They are closely aligned with the leading and largest 'unionist' party in Scotland after all and count senior members of that party as directors.

 

It's this use of language that causes a lot of these arguments and confusions. What is 'unionism' in the 21st century? Is it defending the NHS or picketing a town hall because it won't fly the union flag everyday?

 

The club haven't been in any way political for decades now. Whilst the flying of a Union flag over Ibrox and the portrait of the Queen in the dressing room suggest old-fashioned 'Unionism' there have been no additions to those 'traditions' that I'm aware of for a long time now. If the club truly was a 'Unionist' one surely it would have spoken out about the upcoming referendum by now?

 

I've also not read the book or chapter in question but to state that short of playing in blue at Ibrox the club don't have any traditions anymore isn't too wide of the mark.

[Frankie 8,662]

So, are Celtic a 'Unionist club'? They are closely aligned with the leading and largest 'unionist' party in Scotland after all and count senior members of that party as directors.

 

It's this use of language that causes a lot of these arguments and confusions. What is 'unionism' in the 21st century? Is it defending the NHS or picketing a town hall because it won't fly the union flag everyday?

 

The club haven't been in any way political for decades now. Whilst the flying of a Union flag over Ibrox and the portrait of the Queen in the dressing room suggest old-fashioned 'Unionism' there have been no additions to those 'traditions' that I'm aware of for a long time now. If the club truly was a 'Unionist' one surely it would have spoken out about the upcoming referendum by now?

 

I've also not read the book or chapter in question but to state that short of playing in blue at Ibrox the club don't have any traditions anymore isn't too wide of the mark.

 

I'd say the club is probably comfortable enough in its associations to Unionism but, nowadays, it's hardly a bulwark of the modern British Establishment either.

 

Yes there are some Unionist/Monarchist traditions related to the club - i.e. the Loving Cup, the Queen portrait, certain songs and Armed Forces celebrations but they're probably not known outwith our fan-base (or Scottish football at least) so perhaps not an overly vital component of the club's fabric going forward. Sure in the context of this argument they're maybe worth 'defending' (and I certainly would do so if they were questioned) but neither are they something which huge numbers of fans will find essential.

 

Nowadays, Rangers and most football clubs have to be careful when it comes to politics and other social niceties. Some aspects of this inclusive, neutral and modern outlook (or is it bland?) are agreeable but that doesn't mean we should be afraid to recognise and/or celebrate our heritage. There's a fine line there and I'd say over the last ten years or so the club have perhaps erred on the side of caution a bit too much.

[Zappa 0]

I would imagine his quotations sum up the feelings of a considerable number within out support.

 

Aye, but is he an Aberdeen fan writing about Rangers or is he a Rangers fan from Aberdeen writing about Rangers?

[D'Artagnan 173]

Aye, but is he an Aberdeen fan writing about Rangers or is he a Rangers fan from Aberdeen writing about Rangers?

 

He is certainly an Aberdeen fan and alludes to that right at the start.

[Zappa 0]

He is certainly an Aberdeen fan and alludes to that right at the start.

 

Thanks D'Art. I haven't read the book yet, so wasn't sure. His comments that you've quoted certainly give the impression of someone who's extremely interested in Rangers, maybe even extremely sympathetic to Rangers, but without reading his whole contribution in it's original form, it's difficult to tell.