That Israel flag

[TheWee BlueDevil 0]

Simplification of the worst kind.

 

For goodness sake - THINK!!!!

[Hildy 0]

No one questioned your experience, however, everything is relative. Now, a question for you - do you think that the P/U/L community should pack up and just disappear? Do you think they should just ... SURRENDER , in the face of your fervent argument?

You aren't getting it.

 

The fervent argument as you call comes not from me, but from many, many people across Scotland who believe that the Orange movement is an anachronism that serves no useful purpose in modern-day Scotland.

 

Should it pack up?

 

Of course not. If it has value and worth it will survive, but does it have the personnel and leadership required to take it forward and face down an ever-growing number of enemies.

 

I'm not sure that it does.

[BrahimHemdani 1]

Historically, Rangers has probably always been a more agreeable choice for the west of Scotland Jewish community than Celtic.

 

That is just not correct. In fact the opposite is true.

 

Going back to 1962 a Glasgow businessman and Celtic supporter Max Benjamin who wanted to raise money for the Jewish National Fund Charitable Trust paid £100,000 if I recollect, to bring Real Madrid to Parkhead.

 

The lad who I pictured with the Israeli flags on the train to Derby said he was Jewish but when I asked him and his mates about it they said that it was (a) because THEY have been getting away with IT for years (which is no reason at all in my book) and (b) because they supported Israel's right to defend itself (which has nothing whatsover to do with football in my book).

 

Rangers fans have consistently carried the flags of countries whose players are wearing the colours and it may well be that they were fellow countrymen; but that apart I see no place for the flags of unrelated countries at football matches.

[aweebluesoandso 290]

Sorry aweebluesoandso but if the Orange Order / Presbyterian is your heritage and culture, you really should join the order and / or church. Both would be delighted with your joining as their memberships are dwindling.

 

It would also ensure their longevity.

 

I have members of my family and friends who are in the OO, I was going to join back in the seventies, but i took Norman Tebbit's advice and got on my bicycle and moved to England for work., been down here in the North East for over Thirty years now, but still try and get up for the Walk every year.

 

I don't hear anyone complaining about the OO, but then again i suppose it's the company you mix with.

[barca72 440]

You aren't getting it.

 

The fervent argument as you call comes not from me, but from many, many people across Scotland who believe that the Orange movement is an anachronism that serves no useful purpose in modern-day Scotland.

 

Should it pack up?

 

Of course not. If it has value and worth it will survive, but does it have the personnel and leadership required to take it forward and face down an ever-growing number of enemies.

 

I'm not sure that it does.

 

Yes, Hildy I get it.

The difference between your first post and this one is night and day.

Whereas you were dismissive and disrespectful of the Orange Order in your first post now you are being constructive.

I shall not allow that kind of criticism of the P/U/L culture to pass without comment.

I do not believe "that the Orange movement is an anachronism that serves no useful purpose in modern-day Scotland.", but I am willing to accept that this is a perception that is real.

I also agree with you that the leadership of the Orange Order face a huge challenge to their abilities of overturning this perception.

Thanks for the discussion, and may the NO campaign fulfill its aspirations.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

On a sidenote, there is not the slightest possibility that this chap was actually simply a Rangers supporter from Israel? I know that most of my fellow German chaps take their Hamburg Loyal or Rostock Loyal flags instead of German ones along, but I wouldn't take it past others to simply show the local Bears where they are coming from.

 

don't be stupid

[The Real PapaBear 0]

This thread is now about the OO, and/or handwringers.

 

You'd have to ask the people that had the flag what their intentions where, although I doubt you would still be any the wiser. I would guess it's some misguided state v terrorism issue. Who knows....

 

it's very, very simple mate - Timmy flies the Palestinian flag therefore we fly the Israeli.

 

If you asked the fuckwits who took that flag to Derby or who fly it at Ibrox to point to explain why they were flying it, that's the answer you'd get. Either that or some crap about "terrorists" or "israel's right to defend itself".

[BrahimHemdani 1]

don't be stupid

 

If Rangers had a Jewish player in the team or even an Arab from Israel then I could see the point of a Jewish or Israeli fan carying the Israeli flag but otherwise it is just not appropriate IMHO.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Let's fly the flag of the Germans then, they murdered 3 million jews during the second world war, Everyone who waves an Israeli flag should wear a star of David to show he/she is Jewish or a Zionist, ban the Jews culture, maybe even put them in concentration camps would that make you happy?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2715466/Israeli-official-calls-concentration-camps-Gaza-conquest-entire-Gaza-Strip-annihilation-fighting-forces-supporters.html

 

http://www.genocidewatch.org/aboutgenocide/8stagesofgenocide.html

 

The Israelis are now at stage 7 of the 8 stages of Genocide.

 

With every day that passes it becomes easier to see how the original Nazis got away with it for so long.

[Hildy 0]

Yes, Hildy I get it.

The difference between your first post and this one is night and day.

Whereas you were dismissive and disrespectful of the Orange Order in your first post now you are being constructive.

I shall not allow that kind of criticism of the P/U/L culture to pass without comment.

I do not believe "that the Orange movement is an anachronism that serves no useful purpose in modern-day Scotland.", but I am willing to accept that this is a perception that is real.

I also agree with you that the leadership of the Orange Order face a huge challenge to their abilities of overturning this perception.

Thanks for the discussion, and may the NO campaign fulfill its aspirations.

No, you don't.

 

The Orange Order has lost it way - just as Rangers have. I am highly critical of Rangers because I care about it. I hate to see it and its supporters tolerating mediocrity and excusing its many highly paid servants for delivering low grade football and empty promises.

 

My opinion on the Orange movement, which I know much less about, is also low. It has about as much political influence as the Scottish communist party and is regarded in similarly low esteem. It will likely be banned from marching extensively in the future because it is an easy target and has even less friends than Rangers - which is quite an achievement.

 

When it finally happens, I'll support it in any way that I can, but I suspect that it will take a lot more than me to stop the rot.

 

Scotland has changed, and not in a way that I would have chosen, but it would be a lot more useful if people could dismiss romantic notions of how it was and deal with things as they now are. What the Orange movement once was, it no longer is.

 

As for Rangers, I'm a bit more optimistic - but still a pessimist.