Born Under a Union Flag: Rangers, Britain and Scottish Independence

[Chibmark 19]

I'm a Rangers supporter, but can categorically state that my football and politics do not mix.

 

I find the whole debate to be highly frustrating, people being sidetracked on issues that are all hypothetical, though most political arguments are, to be fair.

 

I am firmly in the undecided camp, leaning towards No, mostly because I don't subscribe to the left-wing economic policies being promoted by the Independence campaigners. I think that they are doing themselves out of possible crucial votes using this tactic as I certainly don't want to live in a socialist Scotland and I'm therefore less inclined to vote Yes when the SNP are nationalising a loss making Airport at our (taxpayers) expense to curry votes with the electorate, and lo and behold, Ryanair are now holding a gun to the ScotGov's head.... and surprise, surprise, last week, they fire the first bullet.

 

The reasons I'm not 100% No is that only Stevie Wonder would fail to see the issues and problems that are prevalent in Scotland just now. We are still the sick man of Europe regarding life expectancy, we still have huge poverty levels, and I feel that the Union hasn't been kind to Scotland since the end of WW2 basically, but you could say that about everywhere apart from London and the SE and we are amongst the poorest people in the British Isles. Even Ireland, with all their economic issues, are still richer than Scotland even though they don't have our resources, but they adopted policies which created wealth, attracted the big Corporations and their economy is growing again.

 

Lastly though, I like being British and I like being Scottish, so I am conflicted. My dad is a staunch nationalist, whereas my mother comes from an Orange family, my wife is a Catholic and both of them are 100% No's.

 

My 8yo son says that I should vote No, because he likes TeamGB at the Olympics.

[Thinker 887]

I think it's more likely that an independent Scotland would have prevented the bank from becoming so big that it posed a threat to the country. It's much more likely that our situation would have been more like Norway (with whom we have much more in common economically) than Ireland. That's obviously speculation, but then so is any claim that, had we been independent, we would have followed the UK regulatory framework which allowed the banks to behave as they did.

 

Did you know that whilst the world economy was imploding in 2008, Norway's economy actually grew?

http://www.newsweek.com/stoltenberg-how-norway-escaped-economic-meltdown-70511

 

Imagine being able to control your own economic levers to suit your own economic demands. Something to think about when interest rates in Scotland go up because the housing market in London and the SE of England is starting to overheat.

 

Well, as you rightly say, we can only speculate on the alternative history of RBS - but sooner or later, in any nation's history, either through poor leadership decisions or sometimes sheer bad fortune, economic crises occur. Being part of a large, diverse economy dampens the effect, whilst smaller ones are more like to boom and bust.

 

Whether the levers are in Westminster or Hollyrood, inevitably, eventually the wrong one gets pulled.

Edited July 7, 2014 by Thinker

[Juancornetto 1]

I'm a Rangers supporter, but can categorically state that my football and politics do not mix.

 

I find the whole debate to be highly frustrating, people being sidetracked on issues that are all hypothetical, though most political arguments are, to be fair.

 

I am firmly in the undecided camp, leaning towards No, mostly because I don't subscribe to the left-wing economic policies being promoted by the Independence campaigners. I think that they are doing themselves out of possible crucial votes using this tactic as I certainly don't want to live in a socialist Scotland and I'm therefore less inclined to vote Yes when the SNP are nationalising a loss making Airport at our (taxpayers) expense to curry votes with the electorate, and lo and behold, Ryanair are now holding a gun to the ScotGov's head.... and surprise, surprise, last week, they fire the first bullet.

 

The reasons I'm not 100% No is that only Stevie Wonder would fail to see the issues and problems that are prevalent in Scotland just now. We are still the sick man of Europe regarding life expectancy, we still have huge poverty levels, and I feel that the Union hasn't been kind to Scotland since the end of WW2 basically, but you could say that about everywhere apart from London and the SE and we are amongst the poorest people in the British Isles. Even Ireland, with all their economic issues, are still richer than Scotland even though they don't have our resources, but they adopted policies which created wealth, attracted the big Corporations and their economy is growing again.

Lastly though, I like being British and I like being Scottish, so I am conflicted. My dad is a staunch nationalist, whereas my mother comes from an Orange family, my wife is a Catholic and both of them are 100% No's.

 

My 8yo son says that I should vote No, because he likes TeamGB at the Olympics.

 

You have a solid case for Independence right there in that paragraph, not to mention the huge natural resources and talent that we have at our disposal. A little bit of thinking "outside the box" is all that's required to realise that in the medium to long term we are a viable and potentially prosperous little nation. The short term may bring the kind of economic difficulty that ALL new states encounter but we also have a very clear set of do's and don'ts from the Banking crisis up our sleeve.

 

On another note, I spent yesterday driving round the Firth of Clyde from Helensburgh to Arrochar and then from Dunoon across to Gourock and I had a very real sense of something being not quite right. Faslane and Coulport sit in the idyllic countryside of our nation and over the fence there are real weapons of mass destruction, just sitting there waiting for the call from Whitehall. As an Independent nation we would have absolutely no use for nuclear weapons or submarines and that whole area could be returned to the use of the people who live here, we could re-establish ship building, repair and maintenance yards or other merchant facilities.

 

I've come to see that Scotland is merely a convenient little territory for the ruling elite to house their war machine and in turn we are given our titbits of reward and a pat on the head. From a No voter 6 or 7 months ago to a committed Independence proponent has been a fraught journey but it's been one which has required a bit of soul searching and just plain time. the same could be said for the journey into Independence should the people decide to go for it.

[Scott7 6,167]

Titbits, rewards, pats on the head. Good puir auld Scotland rhetoric but what exactly are they? Can you describe them? And the arc of prosperity - where did that go? Two of the components went bust and the third didn't want to know.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Well, as you rightly say, we can only speculate on the alternative history of RBS - but sooner or later, in any nation's history, either through poor leadership decisions or sometimes sheer bad fortune, economic crises occur. Being part of a large, diverse economy dampens the effect, whilst smaller ones are more like to boom and bust.

 

Whether the levers are in Westminster or Hollyrood, inevitably, eventually the wrong one gets pulled.

 

It's actually the polar opposite mate. Compare the performances of all the European nations of our size who can manage their economic levers much more flexibly than the lumbering, centralised, large state economies like UK, France or Italy who have to adopt a one-size fits all approach. Being part of a large diverse ecomy is certainly a good thing and thankfully, we are already part of the EU. Quite how long that will remain the case when the right wing in England get their way and pull the UK into isolationist irrelevance remains to be seen.

[Juancornetto 1]

Titbits, rewards, pats on the head. Good puir auld Scotland rhetoric but what exactly are they? Can you describe them? And the arc of prosperity - where did that go? Two of the components went bust and the third didn't want to know.

 

They've allowed us to run every aspect of our society and nation apart from the keys to the till. They trust Holyrood to administer the social landscape, health and education of Scotland but not to spend the money we earn. That is a pat on the head.

[Rangersitis 0]

It's actually the polar opposite mate. Compare the performances of all the European nations of our size who can manage their economic levers much more flexibly than the lumbering, centralised, large state economies like UK, France or Italy who have to adopt a one-size fits all approach. Being part of a large diverse ecomy is certainly a good thing and thankfully, we are already part of the EU. Quite how long that will remain the case when the right wing in England get their way and pull the UK into isolationist irrelevance remains to be seen.

 

How can anyone support a vote for Scottish independence, yet still claim to be worried about an uncertain future with regard to EU membership?

 

Barking mad!

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Norway, Sweden and Finland all learned lessons from their own failures in the early 90s.

 

Quite.

 

Denmark was one of the economies worst affected by the recent crisis with the collapse of the housing market leading to many regional banks merging to save them from going under.

Yes, Danish banks got hammered and the point is that the country, far from going under because of it, enjoys a GDP significantly higher than the UK, so claims that the failure of RBS (even if an independent Scotland had allowed it to get to that point, which is debatable) would not have ruined the country.

 

Austrian banks are now coming under increasing pressure due to high amounts of lending to a struggling Eastern Europe, with one major bail out already this year.

 

The Austrian Central bank released a statement today saying "Austrian banks' exposure to emerging Europe is generally positive so they do not need to consider exiting the region ".

 

Talk about timing.

[26th of foot 6,119]

I believe Eck funds the private education for a number of Bookmakers' offspring, likes a flutter?

 

Further, Eck likes to present himself as 'an investor'. I have an idea to establish a Brigadoon type colony on the isthmus of Panama. Shares are still available at a grand a pop, all monies accrued to be secured in the Company of Scotland wooden chest. Interested parties can follow follow their investments progress on, 'the Darien Scheme Blog'(currently being strongly considered for the Orwell Prize).

 

All Dividends will benefit Rangers.

[neutralscot 0]

So it's just me that still has nightmares about Cubillas!

 

I think Rangers and other teams' influence in Scotland has significantly reduced over the last twenty / thirty years, in line with the reduction in actual children playing football. Scottish football, whilst previously the be all and end all for past generations, is losing out to Sky English football and plenty of other forms of recreation, mostly screen based.

I personally don't believe there is any political lobbying / action based on what team a group of MPs support. I think the 'extremist' view of there being a papal / OO conspiracy underpinning the upper echelons of Scottish society as bunkum.

Ranger's influence in a UK context has also declined as Sky reduces Scottish clubs to a minor sideshow. Local supporter size is not as important these days as selling the EPL package to Asia. When Rangers are in the SPFL, they will likely make £150 million less in broadcasting in 3 years than say QPR. In a UK context, like it or not, the old firm are firmly in lower English Championship level now for wages, with the likelihood being that English league 1 will start cherry picking their players in a few years. Hibs/hertz are already competing with English league 1 and 2.

Politically, I believe there is still a lot of affection for Scots in England (and vice versa as you would expect in such a couple of culturally linked countries), and Rangers and celtic are still well regarded to a degree, but the failure of the old firm to even be allowed to join the english league set up at the lowest level during the Dick Advocaat era highlighted how England believes (correctly) they do not need us sportingly, and how little politically the old firm mean in England.

 

I don't believe the 'religious' aspects of Rangers (or celtic) resonate much in England. I think it might be viewed as 2 boxers who hate each other (supposedly), it's hyped, and is good box office. Nobody really cares about the why, just the battle. Religion may have been important 100 years ago but now it's just tribalism.

 

Am I answering a totally different question here? This is worse than uni.