Bluedell 5,624 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 I'll probably be banned for this, so coat on, but I don't think the Billy Boys is an appropriate song for 21st century Rangers.I grew up listening the the masses singing it and it is a very intimidating rousing anthem , a great tribal chant. However, elevating via song, a violent ned, convicted wife beater, and a member of Oswald Mosley's fascists, doesn't strike me as befitting of Rangers. Surely this isn't what Rangers are about any longer? Surely you are a modern football team feeding on sporting endeavour rather than historical references to battering catholics? And in a European Union which is largely catholic, and on increasingly family orientated match day, is it fair to say these chants if deployed are detrimental to Rangers' long term interests? Replace TBB with TFOS, Rangers with Scotland and Catholic with England (and EU with UK) and try that argument elsewhere and see how you get on. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Replace TBB with TFOS, Rangers with Scotland and Catholic with England (and EU with UK) and try that argument elsewhere and see how you get on. I don't recall the word, "England" being in O Flower of Scotland lyrics, or indeed any anti-Englishness whatsoever in the song at all. It's a song which is very plainly about standing up to an aggressive invader, which I believe is something any country should be proud of. It is even extremely respectful and not exactly glorifying in violence with regards to the antagonist - "Proud Edward's army", "sent him homewards, tae think again." Do the English take umbrage against that? It even specifically removes any national slight by naming the aggressor who was considered a very unpopular, arrogant and treacherous king - and of course his army, who have to do as he commands. For what I would see as a pretty easy song to understand, many really seem to struggle with it, as it categorically has no bigotry (especially in regard to anti-Englishness) in it whatsover. Shame some of our own nationals don't even get it. It can't be compared with a very aggressive and violent tone with the lyrics lacking a context of reason for it when considering TBB - "We're up to our knees in *** blood, surrender or you'll die." (Imagine the *** being "English" and sung by the Tartan Army - then there would be an anti English point.) If you changed the lyrics of TBB to something about the defence of Londonderry and used the respectful tone of OFOS then I would imagine it would be fine. For example: Hello, hello, We are the 'Prentice Boys. Hello, hello, You'll know us by our noise. We gallantly repelled proud James, "No surrender" was the cry! For we are the Londonderry boys. I doubt many could find anything wrong with that - apart from being totally irrelevant to Rangers and football. I really do wish people would stop bastardising our national anthem and instead learn the words and what they mean. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
calscot 0 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 PS the context of TBB is actually of a razor gang from Brigton led by Billy Fullerton (reportedly a fascist) who apparently sang this song while marching through Catholic areas on a Sunday. It's a song about attacking certain people so that they bleed copiously and not remotely of defending your people. I really fail to see how it is analogous to our national anthem. That's really a huge step. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangersitis 0 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 I don't recall the word, "England" being in O Flower of Scotland lyrics, or indeed any anti-Englishness whatsoever in the song at all. It's a song which is very plainly about standing up to an aggressive invader, which I believe is something any country should be proud of. It is even extremely respectful and not exactly glorifying in violence with regards to the antagonist - "Proud Edward's army", "sent him homewards, tae think again." Do the English take umbrage against that? It even specifically removes any national slight by naming the aggressor who was considered a very unpopular, arrogant and treacherous king - and of course his army, who have to do as he commands. For what I would see as a pretty easy song to understand, many really seem to struggle with it, as it categorically has no bigotry (especially in regard to anti-Englishness) in it whatsover. Shame some of our own nationals don't even get it. It can't be compared with a very aggressive and violent tone with the lyrics lacking a context of reason for it when considering TBB - "We're up to our knees in *** blood, surrender or you'll die." (Imagine the *** being "English" and sung by the Tartan Army - then there would be an anti English point.) If you changed the lyrics of TBB to something about the defence of Londonderry and used the respectful tone of OFOS then I would imagine it would be fine. For example: Hello, hello, We are the 'Prentice Boys. Hello, hello, You'll know us by our noise. We gallantly repelled proud James, "No surrender" was the cry! For we are the Londonderry boys. I doubt many could find anything wrong with that - apart from being totally irrelevant to Rangers and football. I really do wish people would stop bastardising our national anthem and instead learn the words and what they mean. :D Educate yourself prior to castigating others. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real PapaBear 0 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Not that it would have been workable, but please explain to me exactly when this offer was on the table. QED. That way of thinking is exactly what i'm talking about. Why would UEFA "offer" us anything? What did we have that they wanted so that they would 'offer' us anything? Do the police "offer" you anything to drive with a valid tax disk ? No, what happens is that if you're caught by a decent cop, he'll let you off with a warning the first time. After that, unless you're a complete idiot, you'll wise up and get the disk without expecting an "offer" to be made. If you don't, you get your car taken off you and crushed. We should have taken the first warning and been pro-active in changing the offending words. But instead of acting smart, we conform to (stereo)type. And why would it not have been workable? Because we are too stupid? 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangersitis 0 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 QED. That way of thinking is exactly what i'm talking about. Why would UEFA "offer" us anything? What did we have that they wanted so that they would 'offer' us anything? Do the police "offer" you anything to drive with a valid tax disk ? No, what happens is that if you're caught by a decent cop, he'll let you off with a warning the first time. After that, unless you're a complete idiot, you'll wise up and get the disk without expecting an "offer" to be made. If you don't, you get your car taken off you and crushed. We should have taken the first warning and been pro-active in changing the offending words. But instead of acting smart, we conform to (stereo)type. And why would it not have been workable? Because we are too stupid? Show me the UEFA directive which specifically bans the song in all forms from all Rangers matches and then we can talk. That doesn't mean some half-arsed nonsense which came from the Assembly or stories of Murray brandishing a piece of paper at a meeting of fan groups. Real evidence. It wouldn't have been workable because people would have continued singing the same words that they had grown up singing. Calling them stupid because you don't agree with their choice says more about you than it does about them. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real PapaBear 0 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Show me the UEFA directive which specifically bans the song in all forms from all Rangers matches and then we can talk. That doesn't mean some half-arsed nonsense which came from the Assembly or stories of Murray brandishing a piece of paper at a meeting of fan groups. Real evidence. It wouldn't have been workable because people would have continued singing the same words that they had grown up singing. Calling them stupid because you don't agree with their choice says more about you than it does about them. Happy to help. UEFA Disciplinary Regulations, Article 14, Page 7. I'm not quite sure why you're all of a sudden talking about "the song in all forms". The whole point of this discussion is that because our support refused to adapt the song so that it is now deemed entirely discriminatory per se. We got fined in 2006, fined again 5 times as much in 2011 and have been warned of a stand closure and even heftier fines if we sing it again. So calling the people who insist on damaging the club just so that they can follow their own agenda "stupid" does say something about me I guess. But then so does my sig. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangersitis 0 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 Happy to help. UEFA Disciplinary Regulations, Article 14, Page 7. I'm not quite sure why you're all of a sudden talking about "the song in all forms". The whole point of this discussion is that because our support refused to adapt the song so that it is now deemed entirely discriminatory per se. We got fined in 2006, fined again 5 times as much in 2011 and have been warned of a stand closure and even heftier fines if we sing it again. So calling the people who insist on damaging the club just so that they can follow their own agenda "stupid" does say something about me I guess. But then so does my sig. No mention of The Billy Boys in that link you directed me to. Try again. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Real PapaBear 0 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 No mention of The Billy Boys in that link you directed me to. Try again. I have to think you're being deliberately obtuse now. Maybe you expect UEFA to compile a list of every song it deems unacceptable? Or maybe they could just write something like Article 14. Article 14 - Racism, other discriminatory conduct and propaganda 1 Any person under the scope of Article 3 who insults the human dignity of a person or group of persons on whatever grounds, including skin colour, race, religion or ethnic origin, incurs a suspension lasting at least ten matches or a specified period of time, or any other appropriate sanction. 2 If one or more of a member association or club’s supporters engage in the behaviour described in paragraph 1, the member association or club responsible is punished with a minimum of a partial stadium closure. They have fined us three times in increasing amounts and given us a suspended sentence of a stand closure for discriminatory chanting at games where TBB was sung. You know that, I know that, and the idiots that continue to sing it know that. I don't know what you think you're getting out of pretending otherwise but you're just making yourself look foolish. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rangersitis 0 Posted June 27, 2014 Share Posted June 27, 2014 I have to think you're being deliberately obtuse now. Maybe you expect UEFA to compile a list of every song it deems unacceptable? Or maybe they could just write something like Article 14. Article 14 - Racism, other discriminatory conduct and propaganda 1 Any person under the scope of Article 3 who insults the human dignity of a person or group of persons on whatever grounds, including skin colour, race, religion or ethnic origin, incurs a suspension lasting at least ten matches or a specified period of time, or any other appropriate sanction. 2 If one or more of a member association or club’s supporters engage in the behaviour described in paragraph 1, the member association or club responsible is punished with a minimum of a partial stadium closure. They have fined us three times in increasing amounts and given us a suspended sentence of a stand closure for discriminatory chanting at games where TBB was sung. You know that, I know that, and the idiots that continue to sing it know that. I don't know what you think you're getting out of pretending otherwise but you're just making yourself look foolish. Ok, I shall make it easy for you. There is no total ban on The Billy Boys as UEFA have no jurisdiction over domestic matches. That was a story concocted by Sir David Murray. They will punish abuses ONLY in games which they oversee, and I am well aware of the times that has happened. There have been no sanctions imposed by the SFA any time it has been aired at domestic games, so your call for everyone to bend the knee by watering down the lyrics is both pathetic and unnecessary. The next time you want to accuse me of being foolish, first take your head out of the poxy rule book and get an understanding of the full picture. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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