Dr Waiton on Rangers, Free Speech and Sectarianism

[andy steel 0]

Well, fair enough, but I still think we're secular. I mean, if churches had their way (all of them, btw) equality legislation wouldn't have been passed, divorce would be nigh on impossible, likewise abortion, and so on.

 

If you want to avoid religion you can do so pretty easily, and that sounds like a secular state to me.

[Guest Night Owl]

Sometimes I think I'm the only one st Ibrox watching the game.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Secularism means complete separation of religion and politics (and education). It's inaccurate to describe a country as secular when it's government are engaging with religious groups and leaders and allow those groups to influence policy which it clearly does in Scotland.

 

It is entirely accurate to describe a country as secular if religious groups are afforded exactly the same rights and opportunities to influence government policy as any other group in society; no more and no less. If you think that the Catholic church has any great influence on Scottish Government policy, then you'll have to describe those policies to me, because I can't see any evidence of it.

[aweebluesoandso 290]

It is entirely accurate to describe a country as secular if religious groups are afforded exactly the same rights and opportunities to influence government policy as any other group in society; no more and no less. If you think that the Catholic church has any great influence on Scottish Government policy, then you'll have to describe those policies to me, because I can't see any evidence of it.

 

The fact that Scotland still has apartheid religious schooling paid for from the public purse, at the behest of minority religions, proves that the Scottish government does in fact pander to the Catholic church.

[Juancornetto 1]

It is entirely accurate to describe a country as secular if religious groups are afforded exactly the same rights and opportunities to influence government policy as any other group in society; no more and no less. If you think that the Catholic church has any great influence on Scottish Government policy, then you'll have to describe those policies to me, because I can't see any evidence of it.

 

Scotland have thankfully now sanctioned Gay Marriage but that's only after overcoming the concerted campaign of the Catholic Church. It's spokesman in Scotland embarrassed himself publicly by claiming that a "homosexual lifestyle leads to early death"....

 

Who know's, we may have had that equality long before now had pernicious groups like the RC's not had such an influence on our society. Secularism would have removed those barriers entirely and the decision to progress as a modern state and give everybody the same rights would have been purely political and representative of the vast majority of Scots feelings on the subject. Religion still has a huge influence on our society and that is what I as a secularist will continue to argue against. I don't mean to single out Catholicism by the way, they just make it so easy to argue against their particular narrow minded nonsense.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

The fact that Scotland still has apartheid religious schooling paid for from the public purse, at the behest of minority religions, proves that the Scottish government does in fact pander to the Catholic church.

 

So, if I understand you correctly, Scotland has had segregated schooling for over a hundred years but because the SNP administration hasn't dismantled it and completely turned the nations school system on its head in a time of economic crisis, this is evidence that the Scottish Government "panders" to the Catholic church.

 

And the fact that the SNP administration introduced Equal Marriage into Scottish law in the face of total opposition from the RC church? How does that it into your argument?

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Scotland have thankfully now sanctioned Gay Marriage but that's only after overcoming the concerted campaign of the Catholic Church. It's spokesman in Scotland embarrassed himself publicly by claiming that a "homosexual lifestyle leads to early death"....

 

Who know's, we may have had that equality long before now had pernicious groups like the RC's not had such an influence on our society. Secularism would have removed those barriers entirely and the decision to progress as a modern state and give everybody the same rights would have been purely political and representative of the vast majority of Scots feelings on the subject. Religion still has a huge influence on our society and that is what I as a secularist will continue to argue against. I don't mean to single out Catholicism by the way, they just make it so easy to argue against their particular narrow minded nonsense.

 

We may have had it long before now, but it's unlikely. The SNP introduced the legislation years ago and was one of the first governments anywhere to come out (no pun intended) in support of equal marriage. The fact that it took a few months longer than some others to get through our legislative system is neither here not there and there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that opposition from the RC church played any role in the timetable. In fact, if you look worldwide, it doesn't seem to matter whether a country is RC or not.

 

Countries which have legalised same sex marriages :17

Catholic : 8

Protestant : 9

 

I'd call that a fairly even split.

 

You keep saying that the RC church has a huge influence on our society, but haven't shown any evidence of this. Your claim is that Scotland is not secular and is in thrall to the RC church and yet you cite the evidence to prove the opposite; namely, that the SNP government introduced equal marriage law in the face of tooth and nail opposition from the RC church. If that's not the very embodiment of secularism in action, I don't know what is.

[aweebluesoandso 290]

So, if I understand you correctly, Scotland has had segregated schooling for over a hundred years but because the SNP administration hasn't dismantled it and completely turned the nations school system on its head in a time of economic crisis, this is evidence that the Scottish Government "panders" to the Catholic church.

 

And the fact that the SNP administration introduced Equal Marriage into Scottish law in the face of total opposition from the RC church? How does that it into your argument?

 

They have had more than enough time to start the process to dismantling the apartheid schooling system imo, it took them only a few months to bring in the ridiculous Offensive Behavior and Sectarian legislation. In my opinion they are running scared of the Catholic vote, rather than deal with this expensive dual schooling. I don't know the financial figure but i would argue they will save far more money removing the two school system especially through a dire economic crisis.

 

As for the gay marriage debate , what right has the Catholic church to have any say on how people, gay or otherwise conduct their marriage, apart from stopping it in their Church? Imo again that was an easy win for the SNP, how about tackling the difficult battle of apartheid schooling.

[andy steel 0]

Almost all of us are far more at risk of arrest at or near a football environment than anywhere else, and a conviction for a 'sectarian' offence could mean curtains for a promising career.

 

I missed this earlier on, Hildy, but I must take issue. I'm not in any danger of being arrested for a sectarian offence anywhere near a football ground because I don't take religion into Ibrox with me; and I wouldn't get arrested elsewhere talking about it because I prefer to dismantle theological arguments by intellect rather than shouting insults.

 

Luckily, in a secular country, you can do that without being burned at the stake.

 

If we really are in more danger of being arrested at Ibrox for sectarian issues, that's a pretty damning indictment of us as fans. I can see the problems with the bill, I supported it and have watched dismayed as it is implemented in a most haphazard manner, but even if it is the worst piece of legislation in the history of the world EVER that's no excuse for dragging religion through the turnstiles.

 

On the RC Church and Scotland's legislation, the local minister in my Mum's church fought tooth and nail against the normalisation of marriage laws. She also fought and continues to fight against the ordination of gay clergy in the CoS. Ironically, it was only about a decade earlier that she, as a female, was considered good enough to preach The Word. Sauce for the goose...it's certainly not just Rome which has issues with equality, although I suspect the amount of people of that faith in the media gives them a platform far above their relevance...which, again ironically, is what they frequently accuse groups such as Stonewall Scotland of doing.

 

Finally from me, I fail to see why a political party seeking to avoid pissing off potential voters is even comment worthy. It's a charge we could lay at the feet of every party on every issue...that's how politics works. Highlighting the SNP & religious education as if it's some kind of shock is a bit disingenuous.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

In my opinion they are running scared of the Catholic vote, rather than deal with this expensive dual schooling.

The rights and wrongs of segregated schooling to one side (and for what it's worth I am vehemently opposed to any division in sate sector schooling, be it based on religion or otherwise) there is no such thing as "the catholic vote" - that's an invented bogeyman. Any study on this subject show that Catholics vote in almost exactly way and in the same proportions as the rest of society.

 

As for the gay marriage debate , what right has the Catholic church to have any say on how people, gay or otherwise conduct their marriage, apart from stopping it in their Church? Imo again that was an easy win for the SNP, how about tackling the difficult battle of apartheid schooling.

 

Now you're moving the goalposts. Nobody outside the RC church is sayng that they have any right to involve themselves in gay marriages - but that's not the point. The fact is that the RC church believe they do have the right and obligation to involve themselves and so they trumpeted their opposition to the SNP legislation long, loud and hard.

If your claim that the SNP panders to the RC Church because they are scared of offending the (mythological) Catholic vote was true, then the SNP would have dropped this legislation.

However, in spite of the RC church being vehemently opposed to equal marriage, the SNP still went ahead and legalised it, How can that possibly be regarded as an "easy win" or "pandering".