Enemies

[jaymac 0]

Exceptional debate, and clearly illustrates why I enjoy Gersnet so much.

[calscot 0]

They are not interested in peace because they have not yet suffered.

 

This line is an incredibly important point.

 

Imagine a twisted, sadistic bully who sees the one guy he's less tough than and therefore hates, injured and on crutches and decides he wants to humiliate, beat up and leave the rival to die. Then after a load of abuse the victim slowly picks himself up, dusts himself down, puts out his hand and says, "I think that's enough, lets make peace."

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I think that's overstating the case a bit, to be honest.

 

was the mariachi band a step too far?

 

Other than that I can't see what evidence therehas been so far to suggest that I'm overstating the case. I'm more than happy to be proved wrong, because we will at some point have to move on as a footballing community, and more than happy to take two steps towards them for every one of theirs towards us but I haven't seen the slightest indication that They are willing to acknowledge that there is anything to talk about.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

This line is an incredibly important point.

 

Imagine a twisted, sadistic bully who sees the one guy he's less tough than and therefore hates, injured and on crutches and decides he wants to humiliate, beat up and leave the rival to die. Then after a load of abuse the victim slowly picks himself up, dusts himself down, puts out his hand and says, "I think that's enough, lets make peace."

 

ohhh, I widnae like to be in your shoes when Andy reads this.

He didnae like my Mariachi band but he's gonnae hate your playground!

[andy steel 0]

If by 'they' & 'them' we are talking about Celtic then you are right, there will be no rapprochement. No doubt they would treat any attempt with their usual class and dignity.

 

I don't think fans of other sides, other than celtc's faithful acolytes Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, would care that much about us either way to rule out conciliation, especially if it came from our side. Leaving aside natural football rivalry, hate and name calling I think we maybe over estimate the case if we imagine fans of Motherwell or St Mirren, say, maintaining an obsession over us for years to come.

 

Calscot -

 

Bluntly and most annoyingly, a lot of our wounds have been self inflicted. We gave the haters an open goal to score and just as I hope we wouldn't/won't, they didn't miss. BUT - no David Murray style capitalism, no Craig Whyte criminality, no Charles Green bluster and lying, and they would not have been able to do a tenth of what they did to us.

 

Instead of threatening lawsuits right left and centre, if we had dealt with what seems to me like actual criminality - the 5 way agreement - through the courts, while doing our damnedest to clear up the mess we had left behind us, we would have been better off.

 

There's that face painter in the papers again, moaning about his £2,000. Why the hell hasn't he been paid, since we can find hundreds of thousands for board members at the drop of a hat? No, there is no obligation to pay creditors post-liquidation but in the case of a football club it seems like the right thing to do, especially given our much vaunted moral high ground, especially when the people owed are fans and especially if we are trying to avoid becoming pariahs.

 

I think that, in our playground, a lot of people are watching on with disinterest because they feel we 'had it coming' and behaved poorly when armageddon hit and in some ways I find it hard to argue against that (not all, to be sure). If we change a bit, I think others may. Then we may see the bully less able to do his dastardly deeds without Mr Thwacky, the non-Bluenose but fair headmaster, intervening. Of course the weakness of this argument is that at present Mr Thwacky is called Stewart Regan and may as well go to work with a green & white scarf around his neck...but if we think we can shift him and the rest of the cabal by out waiting them in a game of isolationist chicken I think we are mistaken.

Edited February 19, 2017 by andy steel

[D'Artagnan 173]

If by 'they' & 'them' we are talking about the tims then you are right, there will be no rapprochement. No doubt they would treat any attempt with their usual class and dignity.

 

I don't think fans of other sides, other than celtc's faithful acolytes Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, would care that much about us either way to rule out conciliation, especially if it came from our side. Leaving aside natural football rivalry, hate and name calling I think we maybe over estimate the case if we imagine fans of Motherwell or St Mirren, say, maintaining a tim like obsession over us for years to come.

 

Calscot -

 

Bluntly and most annoyingly, a lot of our wounds have been self inflicted. We gave the haters an open goal to score and just as I hope we wouldn't/won't, they didn't miss. BUT - no David Murray style capitalism, no Craig Whyte criminality, no Charles Green bluster and lying, and they would not have been able to do a tenth of what they did to us.

 

Instead of threatening lawsuits right left and centre, if we had dealt with what seems to me like actual criminality - the 5 way agreement - through the courts, while doing our damnedest to clear up the mess we had left behind us, we would have been better off.

 

There's that fucking face painter in the papers again, moaning about his £2,000. Why the hell hasn't he been paid, since we can find hundreds of thousands for board members at the drop of a hat? No, there is no obligation to pay creditors post-liquidation but in the case of a football club it seems like the right thing to do, especially given our much vaunted moral high ground, especially when the people owed are fans and especially if we are trying to avoid becoming pariahs.

 

I think that, in our playground, a lot of people are watching on with disinterest because they feel we 'had it coming' and behaved poorly when armageddon hit and in some ways I find it hard to argue against that (not all, to be sure). If we change a bit, I think others may. Then we may see the bully less able to do his dastardly deeds without Mr Thwacky, the non-Bluenose but fair headmaster, intervening. Of course the weakness of this argument is that at present Mr Thwacky is called Stewart Regan and may as well go to work with a green & white scarf around his neck...but if we think we can shift him and the rest of the cabal by out waiting them in a game of isolationist chicken I think we are mistaken.

 

I dont agree with that Andy - sorry. I find myself reading and re-reading John DC Gow's chapter A perfect Storm and agreeing with its jist almost in entirety.

 

I do agree, however much of our problems were self inflicted and your examples of SDM/Whyte/Green are absolutely spot on.

 

However to go back to what RPB said - they want us emasculated. And they want that not because of anything which happened relative to admin - but because our press and media have painted us as the cause of sectarianism - we are the bad guys and its actually good and wholesome to hate Rangers.

[amms 0]

You're just not getting this, mate.

 

We could make the first move by marching openly towards them, proudly in seried ranks, like a platoon of Prussian dragoons heading for Napoleonic canon. We could sneak up covertly like a spy in a Czech railway siding, offering hushed conversations and discreet agreements. We could bedeck ourselves in garlands of bourgainvillea and announce our intentions by sashaying up to Hamden like a troop of Mexican dancing girls to the beat of a mariachi band - it makes no differentce.

 

They are simply not interested in making or receiving a first move.

They are not interested in anything other than our emasculation and humiliation.

They are not interested in peace because they have not yet suffered.

 

Andy's pretty much covered this but I'll reply anyway. Your definition of 'They' is too wide. There is no reason why the supporters and officials at Ross County, ICT, St Johnstone, St Mirren, Partick Thistle and Kilmarnock for example wouldn't be open to improving relationships. I imagine the rump of the Heart's support have some idea of what we went through and could be reached out too if we wanted.

 

If we can provide a vision for the game that's inclusive, sustainable and fair why would clubs like the ones mentioned not at least give it consideration? Certainly I'd hope that the clubs in Division's 2 and 3 who we've played against recently don't bear us any great ill-will now.

 

There's an opportunity to make a difference just now, the game is being very badly run, many clubs feel this way but there is little alternative. Provide an alternative and see how others react to it. We'd be no worse off than we are just now.

 

Supporters of all clubs have made it very clear what they'd like to see in Scottish football, I'd love to see the reaction if Rangers stood up and proposed giving supporters what they want.

[amms 0]

This line is an incredibly important point.

 

Imagine a twisted, sadistic bully who sees the one guy he's less tough than and therefore hates, injured and on crutches and decides he wants to humiliate, beat up and leave the rival to die. Then after a load of abuse the victim slowly picks himself up, dusts himself down, puts out his hand and says, "I think that's enough, lets make peace."

 

I'd say Dundee, Dunfermline and Hearts have suffered. I'd say all the clubs outside of Celtic have at least experienced increased financial difficulty.

In my experience bullies tend to be less tough when the mob behind them starts to disapprove of their actions.

[andy steel 0]

I dont agree with that Andy - sorry. I find myself reading and re-reading John DC Gow's chapter A perfect Storm and agreeing with its jist almost in entirety.

 

I do agree' date=' however much of our problems were self inflicted and your examples of SDM/Whyte/Green are absolutely spot on.

 

However to go back to what RPB said - they want us emasculated. And they want that not because of anything which happened relative to admin - but because our press and media have painted us as the cause of sectarianism - we are the bad guys and its actually good and wholesome to hate Rangers.[/quote']

 

I'll have to duck that issue - I'm afraid I'm at a disadvantage when the context of 'Follow We Will' is raised as I haven't read it.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I don't think we actually disagree on very much at all, Andy & amms.

We should pay off every penny to creditors (except HMRC and the sfa/spl) for two reasons: a) it's the right thing to do and b) see a).

We should try to improve relationships with every club in the country (except the Gang of 4) and especially those in the lower divisions.

We should use these new alliances to work towards the betterment of the game in Scotland.

We should expose the only other possible contender for leadership to be the duplicitous, con artists they are for exploring every possible way of dumping the rest of scottish football whilst pretending to act in its interests. Every other club can see this and, you're both right, they would probably be open to new alliances.

 

However, we can only do any of that when Scottish football as a whole is ready to accept that the crimes 'we' committed were actually committted by a crook who had taken control of our club under circumstances that are likely to have been criminal and who was only allowed to take control of the club because those in charge of Scottish football failed to do their jobs properly.

 

It is never possible to negotiate from a position of weakness. If you try then the negotiations quickly become a diktat