The unacceptable face of Scotland

[D'Artagnan 173]

That's an utterly bizarre statement by Hibs. Why would a club go to all the effort of remembering fallen ex-players, raising monies, sending a representative to Remembrance Services, putting poppies on some players shirts but not bother holding a minute's silence?

 

I've no wish to points score over this but that does sound a lot like like 'we didn't want to annoy our uber fans, but look! look! we did all this stuff, so you can't criticise us!!'

 

Not having a silence because the SPFL has no official relationship with the Poppy Fund is just weird.

 

That Andy is exactly the point Im making. The uber type morons are being pandered to - due to fear of disruption we are acquiescing from the norm.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

These last five years, I have participated in the annual Gersnet debate on Remembrance.

 

This year, I have thought longer and harder before contributing. I served in the Parachute Regiment for 16 years. I was a participant in Remembrance services in Germany, Cyprus, Belize, France, Hong Kong, Nothern Ireland, Oman ........... They were sombre and reflective. A padre would offer a spiritual thought or two, a CO/OC would recall those not in attendance, a piper would parade the Floors of the Forrest, and a bugler would chorus the last post. It could be 15 minutes or in excess of an hour if involved in a city/town parade.

 

Triumphalism was NEVER involved.

 

At Ibrox in the last few years, I have posted my reservations. These days, those in service are bounced from one tour of operational duty(often without adequate build up training) and I can see the benefits of a jolly at your favoured football pitch. However, there is a tipping point where sombre reflection is lost. Howitzers and Rule Britannia are not appropriate. Service personnel cavorting on the pitch does not aid remembrance of the fallen. Those in the stands who adhere absolutely to poppy fascism are blind to the point.

 

Here's the point; I helped carry 23 fallen members of our battle group into a sodden trench at Darwin/Goose Green. The Falklands Conflict occurred because an Argentine Fascist Junta invaded islands inhabited by almost 2,500 British citizens. The military Junta had disappeared 40,000 of their own peoples in the decade before 1982. They brought Dictatorship to unwilling folks because domestic policies were failing. A farming/shepherding/fishing community were to be subjected to a particular strain of jingoistic nationalism. A week later at Wireless Ridge, we laid to rest another three comrades. We sustained 81 wounded too. The enemies casualties were at least treble ours'.

 

I reflect on the effect service has on all lives above, particularly I remember Chris Dent. We attended the RMA Sandhurst together. Chris fell leading an assault up a re-entrant feature, several minutes before he had been arguing heatedly on the merits of David Gower retaining his place at the top of the order. Chris would not react positively to the current manifestation of Remembrance practised by an element of the support. Remembering his efforts in ensuring a couple of thousand Britons retain a democratic way of life will keep him warm.

 

D'Art's original post is correct to highlight the problems being caused by another Glasgow club's denial of reality. Several years of guaranteed away fixtures on this weekend, intimidation of the opposition on their own grounds to forego the minute's silence, and defying the media to mention, let alone criticise them for a continuing lack of decency. You know, Chris Dent was most decent and he fell to protect Celtic's right to lack decency.

 

Let's keep our Remembrance decent.

 

a fantastic and moving post, 26th

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Well services are held in churches and at war memorials all over the country on Remembrance Sunday, people gather in large numbers at those, it's fairly well established culturally this goes on so I doubt many people are unaware of it.

As a society we do remember those who died in war, that's what the poppy is for, that's why we have Remembrance Sunday and then the 11-11-11 services too. It is still taught in schools too as part of compulsory History.

 

But that's not the point. The point is that we, as a society, have to have a way in which we can clearly demonstrate the observance of rememberence. By doing so, in places like football stadia, where the biggest public gatherings take place, we emphasise to upcoming generations how important this is to us. The effect of a 50,000 seater stadium falling completely silent is unlike anything else and therefore all the more powerful.

People do not gather in large numbers in churches or at war memorials. You can take all the people in all the churches in Glasow of a Sunday morning and do you think you'll reach the same numbers that are shopping at Braehead?

 

I'm not sure what 'normal societal rules' have been suspended here.

Common decency.

I doubt a minutes silence was held in cinemas, concerts, shopping centres or theatres on Saturday. It's not Rangers supporter's jobs to tell Hibs or whoever what to do. If the British Legion or their local MSP wants to take them to task then that's fine, but for us to complain about something that didn't happen at an event we weren't at is hard for me to square. Had they been playing us and decided not to hold one I think we'd be entitled to ask why.

 

Cinemas, concerts etc all ply their trade on Sunday and have the opportunity to mark the event if they wish to. Football clubs, play once a week and it has become the societal norm that on what is now known as remembrance weekend, the people gathered at those clubs use the occassion of their congregation to show respect.

 

This is an event too important to be left to one group to police. It's not the job of RFC or the Legion or MPs to tell Hibs or whoever - it's all our jobs. Remeberance doesn't belong to one group or one political philosophy, it belongs to us all equally, like the right to vote.

[amms 0]

But that's not the point. The point is that we, as a society, have to have a way in which we can clearly demonstrate the observance of rememberence. By doing so, in places like football stadia, where the biggest public gatherings take place, we emphasise to upcoming generations how important this is to us. The effect of a 50,000 seater stadium falling completely silent is unlike anything else and therefore all the more powerful.

 

But we do have that, we have a whole day called Remembrance Sunday dedicated to exactly that, as well as the 11th of November too when that doesn't fall on a Sunday. To say society has to have a clear form of observance is to dismiss the clear forms of observance that have stood us for generations.

 

People do not gather in large numbers in churches or at war memorials. You can take all the people in all the churches in Glasow of a Sunday morning and do you think you'll reach the same numbers that are shopping at Braehead?

 

They do actually not that it really makes much difference to this argument. I'm surprised at your view on this, why not simply make it compulsory then, make everything everywhere stop at 11am on the 11th no matter what, make it law? It goes against everything people gave their lives for but if this is a numbers game then lets push that through. Whether people choose to go to a church service or attend at a war memorial, or watch the big one on TV is very much down to the individual surely, they shouldn't be compelled.

 

Common decency.

 

It strikes me they seem more in step with society than you. It seems football, and senior football at that, is the only place being put under the spotlight here. There was no breach of decency on Saturday that I can see.

 

Cinemas, concerts etc all ply their trade on Sunday and have the opportunity to mark the event if they wish to. Football clubs, play once a week and it has become the societal norm that on what is now known as remembrance weekend, the people gathered at those clubs use the occassion of their congregation to show respect.

 

No, this is a very recent thing, it wasn't the norm when I was growing up. It clearly hasn't become the norm because at least three clubs, and I suspect actually a lot more in the lower leagues too, didn't do it.

 

This is an event too important to be left to one group to police. It's not the job of RFC or the Legion or MPs to tell Hibs or whoever - it's all our jobs. Remeberance doesn't belong to one group or one political philosophy, it belongs to us all equally, like the right to vote.

 

Do you seriously think there is any danger of people forgetting? Poppies are ubiquitous on TV for a fortnight, newspapers carry them on their mastheads, advertising campaigns run throughout the country, social media is awash with avatar changes, Wilfred Owen poetry and 'Remembrance' posts, it is taught in schools, broadcast live on TV and Radio and thousands of people make time to attend services of remembrance. I'd argue it has a higher profile now than at anytime in the last 40 years.

 

I wear a poppy, I've explained its significance to my wife, who isn't British and viewed it with some suspicion at first but now also wears one, and I've explained it to my children. I hope they too when old enough will choose to wear one and remember what it means. But I'll be frank, I'm uncomfortable being told I have to remember something, I have to acknowledge something whether I'm told this by government, the media or greater society. People should be free to give thanks how they want, it shouldn't be prescriptive.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

But we do have that, we have a whole day called Remembrance Sunday dedicated to exactly that, as well as the 11th of November too when that doesn't fall on a Sunday. To say society has to have a clear form of observance is to dismiss the clear forms of observance that have stood us for generations.

 

This may sound odd coming from someone politically to the left of Stalin and with the militaristic tendencies of Aung San Suu Kyi, but I don't think we celebrate rememberance enough. Rememberance Sunday should be (and due largely to football attendences, is becoming) Rememberence Weekend. It has become common practice for all football clubs to observe a silence on the weekend - well, all except one. The furore about hibs, Ross country, thistle and st johnstone was precisely because they did something which was felt to be unacceptable. They haven't done it before and I doubt they will do it again.

 

 

I'm surprised at your view on this, why not simply make it compulsory then, make everything everywhere stop at 11am on the 11th no matter what, make it law? It goes against everything people gave their lives for but if this is a numbers game then lets push that through. Whether people choose to go to a church service or attend at a war memorial, or watch the big one on TV is very much down to the individual surely, they shouldn't be compelled.

 

No-one is talking about forcing individual to do anything. However, when a major event takes place on Rememberance Weekend, there should be a social expectation that the organisers of that event obey their civic duty and mark Rememberance. If they fail to do so, there should be an outcry. Thankfully, that seems to be becoming the case.

 

 

It strikes me they seem more in step with society than you.

 

That, my friend, is society's biggest problem. All it would take would be for the rest of you to change step and the world would be a happier place.

 

It seems football, and senior football at that, is the only place being put under the spotlight here. There was no breach of decency on Saturday that I can see.

No, this is a very recent thing, it wasn't the norm when I was growing up. It clearly hasn't become the norm because at least three clubs, and I suspect actually a lot more in the lower leagues too, didn't do it.

 

Football is the new religion; it's where people gather in their tens of thousands and it should be under the spotlight. You're right in that it wasn't the norm when you or I were growing up. However, it clearly has become the norm now.Otherwise the media wouldn't be running headline stories on clubs who failed to do so.

 

 

 

Do you seriously think there is any danger of people forgetting? Poppies are ubiquitous on TV for a fortnight, newspapers carry them on their mastheads, advertising campaigns run throughout the country, social media is awash with avatar changes, Wilfred Owen poetry and 'Remembrance' posts, it is taught in schools, broadcast live on TV and Radio and thousands of people make time to attend services of remembrance. I'd argue it has a higher profile now than at anytime in the last 40 years.

 

And you would be right. But that's not my point, which is that we need a way to, again, demonstrate the observance of rememberance. It's all very well to walk around with a poppy but unless you actually spend those two minutes in the company of others and take part in a demonstration of rememberance, then to my way of thinking, the point is lost.

 

I wear a poppy, I've explained its significance to my wife, who isn't British and viewed it with some suspicion at first but now also wears one, and I've explained it to my children. I hope they too when old enough will choose to wear one and remember what it means. But I'll be frank, I'm uncomfortable being told I have to remember something, I have to acknowledge something whether I'm told this by government, the media or greater society. People should be free to give thanks how they want, it shouldn't be prescriptive.

 

I don't wear one. I'm uncomfortable about the almost exclusive focus on the uniformed victims of war that the poppy has come to represent. We forget that the vast majority of casualties are civilians, the bulk of those women and children.

[D'Artagnan 173]

Do you seriously think there is any danger of people forgetting? Poppies are ubiquitous on TV for a fortnight, newspapers carry them on their mastheads, advertising campaigns run throughout the country, social media is awash with avatar changes, Wilfred Owen poetry and 'Remembrance' posts, it is taught in schools, broadcast live on TV and Radio and thousands of people make time to attend services of remembrance. I'd argue it has a higher profile now than at anytime in the last 40 years.

 

Yet Ross County claimed they did.

[bossy 0]

I think that remembrance is important but I am uncomfortable with its use as a point scoring exercise which increasingly seems to be the case.

 

As a society, we seem to be coming enamoured with extravagant public displays of mourning and sorrow and, it would appear, remembrance is following the same pattern. Those of us who prefer a quieter more reflective moment of remembrance are being shouted down in favour of the public display. My parents who lived through WW2 and my grandparents who lived through WW1 never really talked about the war. Their remembrance was personal and reflective. As those wars recede in history, so people seem to be more 'uber' about remembering them.

 

Obviously there have been wars since WW2. But are the participants in these wars pushing for public displays of remembrance or is this coming from others? And does it really matter that a couple of clubs did not hold a two minute silence? Is this a stick that we should be beating Celtic and their supporters with or are we just cheapening the memory of our fallen servicemen by using it as a tactic in the propaganda war?

[bossy 0]

I think that remembrance is important but I am uncomfortable with its use as a point scoring exercise which increasingly seems to be the case.

 

As a society, we seem to be increasingly enamoured with extravagant public displays of mourning and sorrow and, it would appear, remembrance is following the same pattern. Those of us who prefer a quieter more reflective moment of remembrance are being shouted down in favour of the public display. My parents who lived through WW2 and my grandparents who lived through WW1 never really talked about the war. Their remembrance was personal not public. As those wars recede in history, so people seem to be more 'uber' about remembering them.

 

Obviously there have been wars since WW2. But are the participants in these wars pushing for public displays of remembrance or is this coming from others? And does it really matter that a couple of clubs did not hold a two minute silence? Is this a stick that we should be beating Celtic and their supporters with or are we just cheapening the memory of our fallen servicemen by using it as a tactic in the propaganda war?

[Zappa 0]

I think that remembrance is important but I am uncomfortable with its use as a point scoring exercise which increasingly seems to be the case.

 

As a society, we seem to be increasingly enamoured with extravagant public displays of mourning and sorrow and, it would appear, remembrance is following the same pattern. Those of us who prefer a quieter more reflective moment of remembrance are being shouted down in favour of the public display. My parents who lived through WW2 and my grandparents who lived through WW1 never really talked about the war. Their remembrance was personal not public. As those wars recede in history, so people seem to be more 'uber' about remembering them.

 

Obviously there have been wars since WW2. But are the participants in these wars pushing for public displays of remembrance or is this coming from others? And does it really matter that a couple of clubs did not hold a two minute silence? Is this a stick that we should be beating Celtic and their supporters with or are we just cheapening the memory of our fallen servicemen by using it as a tactic in the propaganda war?

 

The point scoring aspect of it has become sickening for me because I think it does cheapen the memory of fallen servicemen and it has to an extent become a kind of twisted propaganda war, which is shameful, but that's also an unfortunate reality of our present day society.

 

I'm finding the most sickening thing of all though, is that certain groups of people are actually increasingly campaigning against the remembrance, but I think it's best to deal with that in a pragmatic way. After all, in terms of football, if most of the clubs in the UK hold a minute or two minute silence in remembrance over the weekend as almost everyone fully expects and a handful either choose (or are forced) not to, then it can only reflect badly on them, not everyone else or even anyone who comments on it.

 

Personally, I was quite happy just spending Saturday night and Sunday in the company of my family and listening to the loud sound of bagpipes playing in the distance on Sunday afternoon while my mum did her crossword and thinking in my mind how my dad must be thinking about his dad because I knew he would be.

[simplythebest 0]

For me, the main people who make remembrance political/point scoring etc are the ones who moan about how it's political/point scoring.

 

Just my opinion mind.