The unacceptable face of Scotland

[andy steel 0]

That's an utterly bizarre statement by Hibs. Why would a club go to all the effort of remembering fallen ex-players, raising monies, sending a representative to Remembrance Services, putting poppies on some players shirts but not bother holding a minute's silence?

 

I've no wish to points score over this but that does sound a lot like like 'we didn't want to annoy our uber fans, but look! look! we did all this stuff, so you can't criticise us!!'

 

Not having a silence because the SPFL has no official relationship with the Poppy Fund is just weird.

[aweebluesoandso 290]

I think there's more to this than the clubs that did not hold the remembrance silence are saying, They all seem to agree it was just a one off oversight. What are the odds of more than one club simultaneously forgetting to hold it? They know most people wont believe their joint faux-apologetic stories, so these statements hint to me that they were told by a higher power of the Celtic led SFA or SPFL, that a withdrawal of the remembrance silence would be acceptable on this year and in further years.

 

Unless these clubs and the SFA, SPFL are brought to task over these decisions expect further withdrawals of the remembrance silence in the future. That's how i read the statement from Ross County.

[amms 0]

I think there's more to this than the clubs that did not hold the remembrance silence are saying, They all seem to agree it was just a one off oversight. What are the odds of more than one club simultaneously forgetting to hold it? They know most people wont believe their joint faux-apologetic stories, so these statements hint to me that they were told by a higher power of the Celtic led SFA or SPFL, that a withdrawal of the remembrance silence would be acceptable on this year and in further years.

 

Unless these clubs and the SFA, SPFL are brought to task over these decisions expect further withdrawals of the remembrance silence in the future. That's how i read the statement from Ross County.

 

Surely clubs shouldn't be compelled to hold a minutes silence though? If their own support feel strongly about it they'll complain, if they don't they won't. Much as that might stick in the throat for a lot of people I'm not sure anyone should be forced to remember.

 

We have to be careful here. We should ensure our club carries out the wishes of our support, but what Hibs, St Johnstone or Thistle choose to do is up to them. Nothing is more likely to raise their hackles than being criticised by Rangers supporters.

This shouldn't become a political point, there is ample opportunity for people to take part in a remembrance occasion, it doesn't have to be at a football match.

[aweebluesoandso 290]

Surely clubs shouldn't be compelled to hold a minutes silence though? If their own support feel strongly about it they'll complain, if they don't they won't. Much as that might stick in the throat for a lot of people I'm not sure anyone should be forced to remember.

 

We have to be careful here. We should ensure our club carries out the wishes of our support, but what Hibs, St Johnstone or Thistle choose to do is up to them. Nothing is more likely to raise their hackles than being criticised by Rangers supporters.

This shouldn't become a political point, there is ample opportunity for people to take part in a remembrance occasion, it doesn't have to be at a football match.

 

I just think maybe there's been a bit of bullying going on behind the scenes, there does seem more than a hint of collusion in the statements.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

This shouldn't become a political point, there is ample opportunity for people to take part in a remembrance occasion, it doesn't have to be at a football match.

 

Then where? Where else do people gather in such numbers? Surely there is a moral imperative for us to remember those who died in war?

 

This is us, as a society, remembering those members who lost their lives in war. If opposition fans of ross county, Hibs or whoever want to start seeing the rememberance silence as a tribal, football issue simply because of how Rangers is currently celebrating it, then that is a reflection of their own ethical standards. If a club doesn't mark the silence, then I think it should be forced by public opinion to explain why.

 

One of the ugliest things about football is this idea that normal societal norms suddenly no longer apply when there is a coloured scarf and a leather ball involved.

[amms 0]

I just think maybe there's been a bit of bullying going on behind the scenes, there does seem more than a hint of collusion in the statements.

 

My own view, and I've nothing to back it up other than a hunch, is that the SPFL didn't send out an directive to clubs to hold one and that in the past the SPL did. So because of that some clubs chose to hold one and some didn't. The fact Aberdeen and Motherwell did hold one suggests this was a club based choice rather than any pressure being applied. Just my opinion of course.

 

What about in the lower divisions, were minutes silences observed at Dumbarton or Arbroath or Auchinleck? Was any pressure brought to bear there, we're all the same league now after all.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

I just think maybe there's been a bit of bullying going on behind the scenes, there does seem more than a hint of collusion in the statements.

 

I tend to think it's more back-scratching than bullying.

[aweebluesoandso 290]

I tend to think it's more back-scratching than bullying.

 

Back-scratching, bullying or as amms says the SPFL (well we know who runs that and the cabal) not sending out a directive, it points to an deliberate erosion of Scottish football's remembrance traditions.

[amms 0]

Then where? Where else do people gather in such numbers? Surely there is a moral imperative for us to remember those who died in war?

 

This is us, as a society, remembering those members who lost their lives in war. If opposition fans of ross county, Hibs or whoever want to start seeing the rememberance silence as a tribal, football issue simply because of how Rangers is currently celebrating it, then that is a reflection of their own ethical standards. If a club doesn't mark the silence, then I think it should be forced by public opinion to explain why.

 

One of the ugliest things about football is this idea that normal societal norms suddenly no longer apply when there is a coloured scarf and a leather ball involved.

 

Well services are held in churches and at war memorials all over the country on Remembrance Sunday, people gather in large numbers at those, it's fairly well established culturally this goes on so I doubt many people are unaware of it.

As a society we do remember those who died in war, that's what the poppy is for, that's why we have Remembrance Sunday and then the 11-11-11 services too. It is still taught in schools too as part of compulsory History. The moral imperative is already in place. I could understand clubs playing on Remembrance Sunday being compelled to hold a minutes silence but not the day before. That should be through choice, not compulsion.

 

I'm not sure what 'normal societal rules' have been suspended here. I doubt a minutes silence was held in cinemas, concerts, shopping centres or theatres on Saturday. It's not Rangers supporter's jobs to tell Hibs or whoever what to do. If the British Legion or their local MSP wants to take them to task then that's fine, but for us to complain about something that didn't happen at an event we weren't at is hard for me to square. Had they been playing us and decided not to hold one I think we'd be entitled to ask why.

[26th of foot 6,082]

These last five years, I have participated in the annual Gersnet debate on Remembrance.

 

This year, I have thought longer and harder before contributing. I served in the Parachute Regiment for 16 years. I was a participant in Remembrance services in Germany, Cyprus, Belize, France, Hong Kong, Nothern Ireland, Oman ........... They were sombre and reflective. A padre would offer a spiritual thought or two, a CO/OC would recall those not in attendance, a piper would parade the Floors of the Forrest, and a bugler would chorus the last post. It could be 15 minutes or in excess of an hour if involved in a city/town parade.

 

Triumphalism was NEVER involved.

 

At Ibrox in the last few years, I have posted my reservations. These days, those in service are bounced from one tour of operational duty(often without adequate build up training) and I can see the benefits of a jolly at your favoured football pitch. However, there is a tipping point where sombre reflection is lost. Howitzers and Rule Britannia are not appropriate. Service personnel cavorting on the pitch does not aid remembrance of the fallen. Those in the stands who adhere absolutely to poppy fascism are blind to the point.

 

Here's the point; I helped carry 23 fallen members of our battle group into a sodden trench at Darwin/Goose Green. The Falklands Conflict occurred because an Argentine Fascist Junta invaded islands inhabited by almost 2,500 British citizens. The military Junta had disappeared 40,000 of their own peoples in the decade before 1982. They brought Dictatorship to unwilling folks because domestic policies were failing. A farming/shepherding/fishing community were to be subjected to a particular strain of jingoistic nationalism. A week later at Wireless Ridge, we laid to rest another three comrades. We sustained 81 wounded too. The enemies casualties were at least treble ours'.

 

I reflect on the effect service has on all lives above, particularly I remember Chris Dent. We attended the RMA Sandhurst together. Chris fell leading an assault up a re-entrant feature, several minutes before he had been arguing heatedly on the merits of David Gower retaining his place at the top of the order. Chris would not react positively to the current manifestation of Remembrance practised by an element of the support. Remembering his efforts in ensuring a couple of thousand Britons retain a democratic way of life will keep him warm.

 

D'Art's original post is correct to highlight the problems being caused by another Glasgow club's denial of reality. Several years of guaranteed away fixtures on this weekend, intimidation of the opposition on their own grounds to forego the minute's silence, and defying the media to mention, let alone criticise them for a continuing lack of decency. You know, Chris Dent was most decent and he fell to protect Celtic's right to lack decency.

 

Let's keep our Remembrance decent.