Sectarian Songs - Focus Group

[ian1964 10,721]

There is not one bit of media coverage about Celtic fans singing about Frank de Boer being a sad orange bastard. Neither is there police and politician investigations.

 

That suggests an inherent flaw in how this whole issue works.

 

 

http://www.vidup.de/v/tS14S/

[andy steel 0]

Well, it plainly wasn't all of them. But you could certainly put a complaint in if you felt only Rangers fans were being targeted on the strength of that, since you can, with a bit of imagination, hear the offending words.

 

In fact, if you feel that way and don't put a complaint in, it would be a bit weird.

[BrahimHemdani 1]

Much as we and FdB and perhaps Dutch people in general might find that offensive (and it kept breaking up when I tried to play it, so I'll assume that was what was sung) in order to bring a charge under the OBA, you would need to be able to prove:

 

1. 
   
2. That by using the word "orange" you were referring to a specific group of people, presumably Dutch people; and I don't think you would need to be much of a lawyer to contest that;
   
3. 
   
4. OR perhaps Protestant people, even more difficult I would suggest;
   
5. 
   
6. OR was behaviour that the mythical "reasonable person" would be likely to consider offensive;
   
7. 
   
8. AND (and here's the rub) (i) is likely to incite public disorder, or (ii) would be likely to incite public disorder; BUT for the fact that—measures are in place to prevent public disorder i.e. the Police are there to prevent it (is not a defence). So you would then need to show that the Ajax fans or any neutrals in the crowd were likely to riot. I'm not sure how you would prove that.
   

 

Personally I think it's bang out of order; but I also think that the chances of obtaining a conviction under the OBA are next to zilch, which is probably why no one was arrested for it.

[andy steel 0]

Much as we and FdB and perhaps Dutch people in general might find that offensive (and it kept breaking up when I tried to play it, so I'll assume that was what was sung) in order to bring a charge under the OBA, you would need to be able to prove:

 

1. 
   
2. That by using the word "orange" you were referring to a specific group of people, presumably Dutch people; and I don't think you would need to be much of a lawyer to contest that;
   
3. 
   
4. OR perhaps Protestant people, even more difficult I would suggest;
   
5. 
   
6. OR was behaviour that the mythical "reasonable person" would be likely to consider offensive;
   
7. 
   
8. AND (and here's the rub) (i) is likely to incite public disorder, or (ii) would be likely to incite public disorder; BUT for the fact that—measures are in place to prevent public disorder i.e. the Police are there to prevent it (is not a defence). So you would then need to show that the Ajax fans or any neutrals in the crowd were likely to riot. I'm not sure how you would prove that.
   

 

Personally I think it's bang out of order; but I also think that the chances of obtaining a conviction under the OBA are next to zilch, which is probably why no one was arrested for it.

 

Sanity there, BH, but then I have read of bears being arrested for potentially inciting public disorder when singing TBB in the Broomy, so they can use it if they want to! Also, I don't buy the difficulty involved in asserting that Timothy is certainly referring to Prods when he uses the word Orange; given the West of Scotland context, and given the precedent set in many cases where the 'F' word equates to Catholic, I think that wouldn't be as hard as you think.

 

But people are talking about complaining to UEFA rather than the cops, I think.

[der Berliner 3,744]

Well, it plainly wasn't all of them. But you could certainly put a complaint in if you felt only Rangers fans were being targeted on the strength of that, since you can, with a bit of imagination, hear the offending words.

 

In fact, if you feel that way and don't put a complaint in, it would be a bit weird.

 

Maybe I am wrong with the occasion, but weren't Rangers done because FARE sent one of their impartial own to Eindhoven, who "heard" some of our supporters indulge in the odd naughty song. When even our more hardlined supporters who were there failed to mark them out? And UEFA still took action ...

[RANGERRAB 3,654]

There is not one bit of media coverage about Celtic fans singing about Frank de Boer being a sad orange bastard. Neither is there police and politician investigations.

 

That suggests an inherent flaw in how this whole issue works.

 

The legislation introduced and the formation of FOCUS are both intended to target Rangers & its support. That is a fact in this vile, infested little country we live in. Remember that next time at the ballot box. It was both the SNP & the Lhabour party who are responsible for this.Don't vote for them.It's unfortunate we don't have a party like N.I's DUP here in Scotland whom we could identify with.Could they set up over here?

Last night's FdeB chants should have FOCUS attempting to identify the culprits but not a word so far. Are they investigating ? If not why not? Are they deaf or ,as I suspect, selective ?

You cannot have legislation which applies to one section of a community but not another. The end result is seen all too often around the world. Don't think it couldn't happen here. It could.

[BrahimHemdani 1]

Sanity there, BH, but then I have read of bears being arrested for potentially inciting public disorder when singing TBB in the Broomy, so they can use it if they want to! Also, I don't buy the difficulty involved in asserting that Timothy is certainly referring to Prods when he uses the word Orange; given the West of Scotland context, and given the precedent set in many cases where the 'F' word equates to Catholic, I think that wouldn't be as hard as you think.

 

But people are talking about complaining to UEFA rather than the cops, I think.

 

I would suggest there's a bit of a difference there but I take your point. One of the points that a lot of people don't appreciate in this context is that it all depends on how an individual police officer views the situation at the time; this was made crystal clear at the JRG.

 

Calscot covered quite a few!

 

Could part of the flaw be that there are not at least a few hundred bears complaining to UEFA, the SFA, the police, the council, their local MPs, FARE and NBM or even the swamping the phone ins and news story comment sections?

 

Well, if I was a lawyer and if I was appearing for the defence; then I think I'd start with Orange as in phones or nights at the cinema; fortunately I am not a lawyer; but here again you may well be right about context. If complaints are made to the police we'll soon find out.

[BrahimHemdani 1]

Maybe I am wrong with the occasion, but weren't Rangers done because FARE sent one of their impartial own to Eindhoven, who "heard" some of our supporters indulge in the odd naughty song. When even our more hardlined supporters who were there failed to mark them out? And UEFA still took action ...

 

I was in Eindhoven and can tell you that it was somewhat more than "the odd naughty song". My feeling at the time was that a certain section of our support thought that because it was Holland it was OK, basically anything goes. I did see one father berate his son; but as I can tell you from bitter experience there is absolutely no point in trying to reason with some people and it is extremely difficult to "mark them out" when no one is sitting in the correct seats.

[BrahimHemdani 1]

The legislation introduced and the formation of FOCUS are both intended to target Rangers & its support.

 

The legislation and the formation of FoCUS came out of the so called "shame game" and was introduced because the SG were concerned about the damage it was doing to Scotland's worldwide reputation.

[D'Artagnan 173]

I would say BH that the inference of the term "Orange" is quite clear - it has been used regularly by the Celtic support and not against Dutch opposition I may add.

 

Furthermore there is nothing to stop Police officers at a football match arresting supporters for a Breach of the Peace - despite the new offensive behaviour Act being flavour of the day.