Title of Jum Spence's Fanzine?

[amms 0]

Whilst your post is pretty much spot on I dont know if I agree with the idea that if we clean up our act they will desist with attacking us or may even target other deserving targets.

 

Even if we became squeaky clean the evidence to date seems to suggest they would find other ways to blame us or start attacking parts of our identity that to any right minded individual could or should not be attacked.

 

The more we concede the more they come from.

 

The bigger issue in society is why the media, government etc dont appear to want to tackle this "problem" even handedly across the board but merely hammer one section of society that has demonstrated real attempts to change behaviours and attitudes. Perhaps if we had done what the mhanks have and insisted we were doing nothing wrong and had nothing to change then we would have been left alone.

 

Instead we have shown weakness, admitted fault and that was merely a red flag to a bull for them to come at us again and again and again. No matter what strides we take forward.

 

Until there is an even handed or sensible approach to addressing societies ills across the board there will never be a satisfactory outcome. The media and the government largely dont want to "fix" the problem. Instead they want to magnify and exaggerate the so called problem to drive a sectarianism industry to fund and finance certain bodies and friends.

 

Chibmark's point was why the 'neutral' football supporter who in the past would have had no more enmity with Rangers than Celtic and indeed might have had a preference for us over them doesn't now. I'm sorry but if we look to blame media and the government for inflaming something or refusing to deal with something we're never going to get anywhere.

 

It's not 'weakness' to try and address some of the issues a section of our support undoubtedly had. It wouldn't be 'weakness' to continue that, indeed I'd suggest it would take strength and courage because it would prove unpopular with a section of our own fans.

 

People who hate us, the Spence's and Phil whatever his name is will always hate us. Who cares, I don't, you'll never change them. But there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people out there who have no real grievance with Rangers and yet currently hold us in contempt. Those people can be won over, it isn't a cultural thing with them.

We still seem to be out-of-step with contemporary Scotland, that should concern us as a support and as a club.

[andy steel 0]

I largely agree but I think their end game is summed up by your last line. Thats what is wanted. And as they seem to be able to set the agenda how they want and distort the truth and reality how do we stop them? We need to start defending ourselves.

 

But take the Spence issue as the latest example: twat has yet another infantile dig, 400 Bears finally snap and complain. He gets skelpit cheeks, media report it as BBC apology to Rangers fans, and what happens: twitter abuse (allegedly, I know) and one dumpling gives him abuse in front of his missus. We had him! We absolutely had him and his crappy BBC and we let them off, not by some mysterious alchemy which only the BBC have access to, but because some of our fans acted like tits!

 

How do we stop them? By doing what happened with Spence, right up until it went over the score into a scenario where he could paint himself as the victim. Having grown up with journalists who positively revelled in abuse from fans, this new, sensitive hack persona is a bit hard to swallow, but there we are, if that's what we're up against then that's how we fight it.

[Tannochsidebear 2,429]

There is absolutely no proof he was abused by fans in the street. No witnesses, nada.

 

You cannot take his word for it as he has been proven to be a liar on countless occasions, coupled with how convenient it was to have happened at a time he was under the cosh. You can guarantee that if he had small kids they would have also been present at this "attack".

 

It is just as easy to say that this event did not occur at all and was made up to deflect the exact position you state above, in that he was on thin ice and had nowhere to go.

 

Apart from the old victim card of course.

[calscot 0]

Even if the "attack" is genuine, in what form did it take? Eg, "Hey Spence ya lying c***!"?

 

That's about as far as I think it would get and it's hardly much for any telly person with a reasonably thick skin. I don't remember Celtic fans being demonised after Goram's "attack" where the perpetrator was actually convicted.

[The Real PapaBear 0]

Even if the "attack" is genuine, in what form did it take? Eg, "Hey Spence ya lying c***!"?

 

That's about as far as I think it would get and it's hardly much for any telly person with a reasonably thick skin. I don't remember Celtic fans being demonised after Goram's "attack" where the perpetrator was actually convicted.

 

Quite. This "attack in the street" has been suspiciously devoid of detail.

 

I have no evidence, but I would place a hefty wager that if it did happen (and personally, I doubt whether it did) it went something like this:

 

Scene: A leafy suburb of Dundee. Enter stage left, Spence and his wife getting into or out of their car. A couple of neds drive past in a souped up Corsa; one leans out the window and shouts "Haw Spence! Ya fanny".

 

Job done and Jim gets to be the victim of an attack - and the story changes from one of the abuse of public airwaves for personal vendetta and deceit to one of alleged persecution and intimidation.

[andy steel 0]

It is just as easy to say that this event did not occur at all and was made up to deflect the exact position you state above, in that he was on thin ice and had nowhere to go.

 

I don't have your faith in our fellow fans and can't buy this. It's wishful thinking which brings to mind the two Lennon-bombers, of whom we were told for months that there was no evidence they were Bluenoses. My intense love for Rangers doesn't blind me to the presence of the arseholes among us, and just as those two twats were Rangers men, so to will whoever shouted abuse or whatever at Spence & Spouse.

 

It would be the absolute height of insanity for Spence, with hard copy prof of abuse from his twitter and BBC accounts, to invent this and then go to the cops with it. I have no time for the man's intellect - I think he is an idiot and an appallingly bad broadcaster - but its pretty obvious he's been getting advice from the professional sectarianism industry in Scotland and there no way, in my eyes, that they would have made the mistake of reporting an invented incident.

 

Ignoring or denying what is alleged to have happened is, on one level, akin to condoning it. We need to be sending out signals to the Lame Brain Order of fans that giving wallopers like Jim Spence a get-out only helps him and hurts us. There's no middle ground, or gentle way to do it, or to avoid sounding like some bighead.

 

If you're happy to let haters of Rangers continually get away with it, then deny we have idiots who undermine the club at every turn in person and on social media. They will do it again, and again, and again, because they will think they are being backed, or at the very least not chastised.

 

If you love the club and want to get revenge on haters, make it clear to those who find it hard to work things out for themselves what's a help and what's not. Explain why abuse - though bloody well merited in many cases - only makes our case harder to win and, distasteful as it may be, we need to learn to bite our tongues and box clever.

[Frankie 8,665]

Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure Spence was abused but I'd imagine we all get threatened more dangerously by our colleagues/bosses at our work each day than he did on the street. Not excusing this moronic behaviour but if Spence can insult us, then we can insult him.

[Super_Ally 0]

The fact that we have one or two idiots amongst our support (proportionately no more than any other I bet) does not mean the likes of Spence get away with their misdemeanours. A regrettable event yes, but I should have no bearing on how Spence etc are dealt with.

[Frankie 8,665]

The fact that we have one or two idiots amongst our support (proportionately no more than any other I bet) does not mean the likes of Spence get away with their misdemeanours. A regrettable event yes, but I should have no bearing on how Spence etc are dealt with.

 

It's amazing how well the deflection strategy continues to work.

 

This is all about Jim Spence and, the actions of a few idiots aside, it should remain about Jim Spence. His behaviour throughout this has been appalling.

[Super_Ally 0]

Chibmark's point was why the 'neutral' football supporter who in the past would have had no more enmity with Rangers than Celtic and indeed might have had a preference for us over them doesn't now. I'm sorry but if we look to blame media and the government for inflaming something or refusing to deal with something we're never going to get anywhere.

 

It's not 'weakness' to try and address some of the issues a section of our support undoubtedly had. It wouldn't be 'weakness' to continue that, indeed I'd suggest it would take strength and courage because it would prove unpopular with a section of our own fans.

 

People who hate us, the Spence's and Phil whatever his name is will always hate us. Who cares, I don't, you'll never change them. But there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people out there who have no real grievance with Rangers and yet currently hold us in contempt. Those people can be won over, it isn't a cultural thing with them.

We still seem to be out-of-step with contemporary Scotland, that should concern us as a support and as a club.

 

If everyone was honest, the government and media acted fairly and there was a real intent to tackle sectarianism (or to find out if there really is much if a need to) then of course examining and improving your own behaviour would not be a weakness.

 

My point was Celtic point blank refuse to admit they have any issues and no one presses them further. We were challenged repeatedly. Repeatedly we give ground. But they don't stop. They don't consider other arguably now more important targets. They just see us as an easy option to promote the sectarianism industry and come at us again and again.

 

Compared to Celtic we showed we were weak and could be pushed around. They just said fuck off and are largely left to get on with their appalling behaviour.

 

I'm not sure we are out of touch with contemporary Scotland. I bet the vast majority would not give a shit about this stuff. But the media/government continually ram it down their throats. They set the agendas that the masses follow.

 

We are really no worse than anyone else. Certainly not now. But media attention wouldn't make you believe that and that is where the lay persons opinions on it are formed.

 

I don't think any amount of cleaning up our act will change this. What will change it is a neutral media and a government that does its job and doesn't waste money on the so called sectarian problem.