Last night may have forced Murray's hand

[calscot 0]

Don't Rangers (well DM really) have a policy of not paying dividends? I think DM prefers to look altruistic by putting all the profits back into the club while making his money from Rangers in less transparent ways - like the building work all done by his companies and the catering etc, etc. He also doesn't take a wage.

 

I think paying a dividend would be 100% transparent and would not go down well at all with the fans or press while we are not spending on the team. As DM owns over 90% of the shares it's all too obvious where the money would be going.

 

I think that would be a big no-no.

 

To me a loan would be far less transparent as who the loan goes to does not seem to appear in the accounts.

 

But what about loan repayments? He could easily have tied up some of the loans to his companies, and to take the money out, he just needs the loans repaid...

 

However, I don't think that's his style at all and suspect the money is reasonably safe. His MO is to skim off the top rather than drink the milk.

[craig 5,199]

Thanks for clarifying that Craig. MY finance knowledge is most rudimentary.

 

No problem Frankie - that is the thing with accounts, they can be window dressed to show a nice happy picture when things arent as they seem (you only need to look to Enron, WorldCom, Disney, Tyco etc etc).

 

I would think though that the Rangers books, as they are quite high profile in Scotland, will be audited quite heavily and with a fine tooth comb by the auditors, who I believe are Grant Thornton (a reputable top 20, I think, audit firm in the UK).

[craig 5,199]

Don't Rangers (well DM really) have a policy of not paying dividends? I think DM prefers to look altruistic by putting all the profits back into the club while making his money from Rangers in less transparent ways - like the building work all done by his companies and the catering etc, etc. He also doesn't take a wage. I agree that he prefers the less transparent methods calscot.

 

I think paying a dividend would be 100% transparent and would not go down well at all with the fans or press while we are not spending on the team. As DM owns over 90% of the shares it's all too obvious where the money would be going. Again, agreed - but a possibility.

 

I think that would be a big no-no.

 

To me a loan would be far less transparent as who the loan goes to does not seem to appear in the accounts. Not necessarily so. Rangers will be subject to an auditing standard called "FRS 8 - Related Party transactions" - if a loan which is financially material then it has to be disclosed in the notes to the financial statements. And I think that 18 mill would be material in the finances of Rangers.

 

But what about loan repayments? He could easily have tied up some of the loans to his companies, and to take the money out, he just needs the loans repaid... Loans can be, and often are, convoluted and are perhaps the easiest way of hiding monies going out of the company as you can vet some very complex loan deals. So this is definitely a way of doing it.

 

However, I don't think that's his style at all and suspect the money is reasonably safe. His MO is to skim off the top rather than drink the milk. I agree wholeheartedly calscot - I don't think he has taken the cash himself but used it to lower the external debts. I was merely pointing out that it MIGHT NOT be the case

 

One thing that concerns me slightly is that, I think, it was said that DM "underwrote" the rights issue - is this correct ? If so then that is another way of skimming - my company have undertaken a few financings in recent years and the "underwriters" get 3-5% of the financing - if DM underwrote the deal he could take 3-5% as an underwriting fee and only the NET amount would show in the capital of the company - another way of skimming rather than drinking the milk.

[ian1964 10,591]

Right, Celtic got a great result are into the later stages of europe and have stated they will strengthen and continue strengthening.

We got a great result and we have qualified for the later stages of europe and we have stated.......................well what are Rangers going to state?....i don't know how much money we'll get, 4 million, and i am wondering how much money in total we actually have to spend now, but i'm quite sure we have enough to sign a couple of decent centre halves and if possible even a couple more signings whoever they might be.But surely we have to start catching Celtic up now or i fear will we ever be able to catch them up.Now this is not a panic statement just a real concern of mine, i know money is tight but we simply can't just turn round and say we cannot afford to buy players, because if that is the case then is it the end for Rangers as a dominant force in Scottish,[european], football.

[pete 2,499]

If UEFA said you have to run a club in the plus how many teams would survive.

Not many i feel.

Chelsea 180 mill in the red.

Real Madrid Less money than sense but keep buying and getting sponsers,but on a no debt policy would probably go down.

[craig 5,199]

If UEFA said you have to run a club in the plus how many teams would survive.

Not many i feel.

Chelsea 180 mill in the red.

Real Madrid Less money than sense but keep buying and getting sponsers,but on a no debt policy would probably go down.

 

Real don't carry as much debt as many of us think IMO. A few years ago UEFA were considering only allowing teams with certain debt levels to enter the CL (UEFA's way of trying to ensure that clubs were fiscally responsible) and Madrid would have been one of the ones turfed out.

 

However, because the club is so important to the local economy the local council purchased the Bernabeu to clear the debt and then rented the ground back to them for next to nothing - so they instantly cleared the debt.

 

Now, I am sure they have clocked up more debt since then but with the TV deals etc they are racking up (740 mill over 7 yrs - YIKES !!!) they don't have that high a debt level (I think !).

 

Thing is Pete, I know what you are saying and it makes sense, and also would be fiscally prudent - but the SPL or UEFA don't hand out prizes for being the best club at watching the pennies.

 

I think it was calscot that said the other day that with DM it has been either boom or bust (HUGE spending to NO spending) when what we need is a balanced spending policy. If we had that approach during the NIAR years we would probably not be in the position of bargain basement spending right now and would be more competitive - and we probably would also have won as many trophies as we did because we were far superior during those years and had enough in reserve to stay ahead of the rest - but then, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[calscot 0]

Right, Celtic got a great result are into the later stages of europe and have stated they will strengthen and continue strengthening.

 

I think the Celtic board have learned a lot after not strengthening the the team after Seville...

 

DM has not learned a thing in 18 years of ownership and only ever acts reactively.

 

Also they are very concious of not reducing the quality while reducing the spending and have done a reasonable job.

 

DM is only focused on reducing debt, not quality on the pitch.

 

But surely we have to start catching Celtic up now or i fear will we ever be able to catch them up.

 

We used to think they would never catch us until DM ruined our finances... but I can't see Celtic doing the same.

 

We dominated Celtic for the first 10 years of DM's tenure but that was mostly due to them being totally mismanaged and having a biscuit tin mentallity. We beat them by spending two or three times as much as them.

 

That is the only way DM can win.

 

The last 8 years have been more of a level playing field and Celtic have completely out played us in the management of their club and they have taken over as the dominant force in Scotland despite us nicking a couple of leagues at the death and a bunch of cups.

 

You have to wonder what it is that DM has brought to the party when Celtic have a bigger stadium, a bigger average crowd, a bigger turnover, a better UEFA ranking, a bigger player budget, and most importantly a far better squad of players who will be much more successful than us this season.

 

And that it despite them having no money, a dump of a stadium, a shit team and being close to bankruptsy about 12 years ago while DM inherited one of the best stadiums in the UK (already paid for), a fantasic team and manager, and a very healthy bank balance and turnover.

 

The Celtic boards of the last 12 years have made their club far better, ours have made our club far worse...

[ian1964 10,591]

I think the Celtic board have learned a lot after not strengthening the the team after Seville...

 

DM has not learned a thing in 18 years of ownership and only ever acts reactively.

 

Also they are very concious of not reducing the quality while reducing the spending and have done a reasonable job.

 

DM is only focused on reducing debt, not quality on the pitch.

 

 

 

We used to think they would never catch us until DM ruined our finances... but I can't see Celtic doing the same.

 

We dominated Celtic for the first 10 years of DM's tenure but that was mostly due to them being totally mismanaged and having a biscuit tin mentallity. We beat them by spending two or three times as much as them.

 

That is the only way DM can win.

 

The last 8 years have been more of a level playing field and Celtic have completely out played us in the management of their club and they have taken over as the dominant force in Scotland despite us nicking a couple of leagues at the death and a bunch of cups.

 

You have to wonder what it is that DM has brought to the party when Celtic have a bigger stadium, a bigger average crowd, a bigger turnover, a better UEFA ranking, a bigger player budget, and most importantly a far better squad of players who will be much more successful than us this season.

 

And that it despite them having no money, a dump of a stadium, a shit team and being close to bankruptsy about 12 years ago while DM inherited one of the best stadiums in the UK (already paid for), a fantasic team and manager, and a very healthy bank balance and turnover.

 

The Celtic boards of the last 12 years have made their club far better, ours have made our club far worse...

 

Aye,remember we managed to steal the tile twice of Celtic or they would be on a roll of titles,very worrying times

[calscot 0]

I think it was calscot that said the other day that with DM it has been either boom or bust (HUGE spending to NO spending) when what we need is a balanced spending policy. If we had that approach during the NIAR years we would probably not be in the position of bargain basement spending right now and would be more competitive - and we probably would also have won as many trophies as we did because we were far superior during those years and had enough in reserve to stay ahead of the rest - but then, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

The thing that I don't get, Craig, is that DM has pretty much paid off the debt with a share issue that we probably wouldn't have had, so our turnover would be similar to now if we hadn't got into debt and I so can't see us having any more money - in the long term you can only spend what you earn.

 

Celtic also had a share issue which put them back in the black and right now both teams have pretty stable finances, so how come they are so much better off than us?

 

Is because they are balancing out their finances by borrowing when they are cash poor and paying it back when they are cash rich, whereas we borrow when we're cash rich and pay it back when we're cash poor...?

 

I've said it before but: The way I see it, as a business we really need to borrow now to get us out of a slump or we'll enter a vicious circle where our income reduces with our lack of success.

 

The top end Scottish Hifi manufacturer Linn did this to great effect - borrowing to spend on research, retooling and training during the recession, the Labour party did it to get the UK out of a recession, so why can't one of Scotland's top businessmen understand it?

[calscot 0]

Aye,remember we managed to steal the tile twice of Celtic or they would be on a roll of titles,very worrying times

 

Without a couple of last minute goals Celtic could have been heading for 7 in a row...

 

5 out of 7 is still pretty dominant especially when they are averaging about 12 points more than us a season with our titles included. And their European record is better too.