Ajax -AZ abandoned through a hooligan

[craig 5,199]

To be fair Pete, you were the one who raised the spectre of the spectator having a knife but surely Zappa is correct, if he was going to knife the goalie he would have run on brandishing it, would he not?

 

Does the keeper have the luxury of deciding that in the split second that he got confronted ? I dont think so.

[pete 2,499]

To be fair Pete, you were the one who raised the spectre of the spectator having a knife but surely Zappa is correct, if he was going to knife the goalie he would have run on brandishing it, would he not?

 

I am not sure I raised the point of a knife at all, I did answer to Gav's question over Monica Seles and in a later post did state that it would be possible to sneak a knife into the ground but the knife scenario has not been part of my argument. I have been arguing solely on the facts as they stand.

 

For what it is worth the KNVB statement stated that the referee handled properly in giving the red card. In this case there are special circumstances which need to be taken into consideration. The attack was from the rear of the keeper and thus unseen to him until the last second. This brought a reaction where the keeper reacted to the situation considered to be purely out of compassion. Due to these circumstances the prosecutor has the meaning that the keeper should not be open to prosecution and therefore the red card was rescinded.

[pete 2,499]

I didn't say he kicked the hell out of him though pete, I said he STARTED booting the hell out of him. That keeper was out of control if you want to get things into perspective. He lost the plot because some twat ran on the pitch and ran towards him aggressively. People have been talking about blades/knives etc in this thread in terms of the "what if" factor, but that way of thinking doesn't make any sense to me. If the idiot had run at the keeper brandishing a knife, then fair enough, but he was just a pissed up or drugged up idiot. I don't think people are putting enough of a distinction here between what they would do themselves in real life and what a professional sportsman should do on the field of play. What IF a loonball did get onto a football pitch and run at a player with a knife? Is it ok for the player to dis-arm the idiot and start stabbing him with the knife in case he gets back up with another knife? Where do you draw the line?

 

It could be used in a new series of murder of compassion.

[pete 2,499]

Update:

 

The hooligan received a 30 year stadium ban and the police have decided to hold him for a further 2 weeks in the jail. That may not mean much as it will be taken off any jail sentence he is given.

[BrahimHemdani 1]

For what it is worth the KNVB statement stated that the referee handled properly in giving the red card. In this case there are special circumstances which need to be taken into consideration. The attack was from the rear of the keeper and thus unseen to him until the last second. This brought a reaction where the keeper reacted to the situation considered to be purely out of compassion. Due to these circumstances the prosecutor has the meaning that the keeper should not be open to prosecution and therefore the red card was rescinded.

 

Nice to know that the KNVB agree with me but I think something must have been lost in the translation if the goalkeepers actions were considered compassionate.

 

Lastly I don't see how the red card can be rescinded by the KNVB on the basis of the prosecutor's decision (is that a judicial prosecutor or a football one, like Mr Lunny?) if it is considered that it was correctly administered; I can understand that no action be taken (although I don't agree with that either) but not the card rescinded.

[pete 2,499]

Nice to know that the KNVB agree with me but I think something must have been lost in the translation if the goalkeepers actions were considered compassionate.

 

Lastly I don't see how the red card can be rescinded by the KNVB on the basis of the prosecutor's decision (is that a judicial prosecutor or a football one, like Mr Lunny?) if it is considered that it was correctly administered; I can understand that no action be taken (although I don't agree with that either) but not the card rescinded.

 

Probably my translation but I mean he was caught up in the passion of the moment

 

I and the Dutch media took it that no action against Estaban meant the red card was rescinded. Your are correct they did not say the red card was retracted just that there would be no actions taken against him. Does that not mean the card has been rescinded?

[pete 2,499]

Nice to know that the KNVB agree with me but I think something must have been lost in the translation if the goalkeepers actions were considered compassionate.

 

Lastly I don't see how the red card can be rescinded by the KNVB on the basis of the prosecutor's decision (is that a judicial prosecutor or a football one, like Mr Lunny?) if it is considered that it was correctly administered; I can understand that no action be taken (although I don't agree with that either) but not the card rescinded.

 

Probably my translation but I mean he was caught up in the passion of the moment

 

I and the Dutch media took it that no action against Estaban meant the red card was rescinded. Your are correct they did not say the red card was retracted just that there would be no actions taken against him. Does that not mean the card has been rescinded?

[BrahimHemdani 1]

 

I and the Dutch media took it that no action against Estaban meant the red card was rescinded. Your are correct they did not say the red card was retracted just that there would be no actions taken against him. Does that not mean the card has been rescinded?

 

Far be it from me to go against the Dutch media, Pete, but you can be found guilty of an offence i.e. the ref was right to send the goalie off for violent conduct, but the powers that be consider that under the circumstances no further "punishment" (or if you like no punishment at all) is deemed necessary because of the circumstnaces of the case. That's not the same as the red card being rescinded. The red card would still be on the player's record and so theoretically could be taken into account if he was sent off again. If for example he banjoed a player next time, they might say this guy really is a loony and throw the book at him.

 

It's like being "admonished" in court which means that it is a finding of guilt, even though there may be no sentence or fine imposed. It is an official court disposal and would be disclosed in future.

 

If they've said it will not be on his record at all, then I would agree that it has been rescinded, but no punishment doesn't necessarily mean that, well not IMHO.

 

I will be very interested to see what happens to AZ and their coach for walking off and what happens to the match itself.

[pete 2,499]

Far be it from me to go against the Dutch media, Pete, but you can be found guilty of an offence i.e. the ref was right to send the goalie off for violent conduct, but the powers that be consider that under the circumstances no further "punishment" (or if you like no punishment at all) is deemed necessary because of the circumstnaces of the case. That's not the same as the red card being rescinded. The red card would still be on the player's record and so theoretically could be taken into account if he was sent off again. If for example he banjoed a player next time, they might say this guy really is a loony and throw the book at him.

 

It's like being "admonished" in court which means that it is a finding of guilt, even though there may be no sentence or fine imposed. It is an official court disposal and would be disclosed in future.

 

If they've said it will not be on his record at all, then I would agree that it has been rescinded, but no punishment doesn't necessarily mean that, well not IMHO.

 

I will be very interested to see what happens to AZ and their coach for walking off and what happens to the match itself.

 

I am pretty sure the decision will be made on the 28th. I am sure there is something else significant on that date but can't think what.

[GovanAllan 0]

Really respect your views BH but think on this one your looking at the incident just a bit to much like a Ref and the laws in general. The first law is look after ones safety and those we care about no matter where it happens and that includes a football pitch.

 

Maybe it will deter anymore muppets from running onto the pitch in Holland if the players know they can give as good as they get without any comeback.