Rangers 2 - 1 St Johnstone: Player Ratings and MoM Poll

[craig 5,199]

The only delusionals are those that think WS is infallible.

 

And where are they ? I dont see ANYONE in here saying he is infallible - only someone suggesting he was a failure at international level when he wasnt.

[wabashcannonball 0]

And where are they ? I dont see ANYONE in here saying he is infallible - only someone suggesting he was a failure at international level when he wasnt.

 

 

Suggesting ?.. no stating, what exactly did we qualify for ? Big Eck took the same players to Scotlands highest ever FIFA ranking 14Th.....and a pulsating heart breaker against Italy.

 

I do not recall saying anyone here said WS is infallible, but other places are known to swing the axe for those who dare to question Walter's saintly mystique..

[Frankie 8,843]

Smith wasn't a failure as Scotland manager.

 

After the Vogts fiasco, he improved Scotland's world ranking by seventy places by the end of his tenure. Sure a bad defeat against Belarus ensured we didn't qualify for the 2006 World Cup which certainly can't be considered a success but he did leave the national team in an excellent state in first position in their Euro 2008 section.

 

Success? No. Failure? No. Somewhere in the middle? Yes. Same as McLeish.

[calscot 0]

I mostly agree but think moving us up 70 places is well above the middle. We didn't qualify for anything but we we low seeds and had hard groups. You can only also do what you can with the players you have and Vogts showed us how bad we could be. I think Walter and Eck made us as good as we can be and so the fact we didn't qualify is no mark of failure.

 

Burley and Levein are again showing us it's not that easy with the current crop of players.

[Frankie 8,843]

I mostly agree but think moving us up 70 places is well above the middle. We didn't qualify for anything but we we low seeds and had hard groups. You can only also do what you can with the players you have and Vogts showed us how bad we could be. I think Walter and Eck made us as good as we can be and so the fact we didn't qualify is no mark of failure.

 

Burley and Levein are again showing us it's not that easy with the current crop of players.

 

I feel that one has to examine the context when appraising such situation.

 

In the last 10 years, Smith's tenure can be considered a relative success.

 

In the last 20 years, it can't.

 

Has international football changed that much since 2000? Possibly a little but Scotland's struggle internationally and failure to qualify for anything since 1998 says more about our football generally as opposed to managerial quality.

 

In fact, if one considers the last 10 years to have been a time where the average foreign mercenary was king in Scotland then that may explain our struggles internationally. Perhaps in 5 years time, we'll be better again as finances dictate more Scottish players are playing again at higher levels?

 

Kaos Theory indeed!

[craig 5,199]

With no disrespect to big Eck I, for one, find it hard to believe that he would have had the "success" he had without having had the luxury of Walter doing the donkey work before him. Eck took Walter's good work and basically stuck with what was already done by WS.

 

I am not trying to taint Eck's tenure, not at all, but I doubt that he would have been able to have done the job WS did had he been the one to follow Vogts.

Edited August 31, 2010 by craig

[juffery 0]

Craig, I couldn't agree with you more. The legacy that Walter left mcleish played a huge part in any success he had with Scotland.

[craig 5,199]

I am not sure that you could suggest that it hasnt been a success in the last 20 years though Frankie.

 

I would contend that whilst we were qualifying for major finals in the last 20 years that things have moved considerably for many countries but we, being the backwater nation that we are and with the suits who look to personal gain before national gain, have been left either frozen or, even worse, stuck in reverse.

 

Given the resources at their disposal both Walter and Eck have been successes. Lets not forget that part of them not qualifying is down to the opponents they have faced.

 

Did any of us honestly expect us to qualify out of a group boasting the WC winners, WC runners-up and the quarter-finalists ?? Even the most optimistic of us would have put that down as a forlorn hope.

 

So when we didnt qualify should it really be compared to the fact that 10 years prior we qualified for the WC ? You can guarantee that the group we DID qualify from wasnt nearly as difficult as the one above.

 

I find it churlish for anyone to suggest that Walter Smith was not successful for the national team - especially considering the players at his disposal and the carnage that had been left by Vogts for him to mop up. We were an absolute shambles when he took over - at least he restored some national pride.

 

Eck continued that and did very well himself too.

 

Maybe it is that some expect us to qualify for major tournaments regardless of opposition - but I think you also need to consider exactly our standing in world football. And whether we like it or not we are NOT near the top table of football any longer.

 

WS and Eck had us punching above their weight, of that I dont think there is any doubt - so given that, I would consider both of them a success.

[Frankie 8,843]

I was being very general and simply comparing qualification or not.

 

Obviously if you go into a bit more depth like you have done then it may be easier to excuse Smith/McLeish for not qualifying for a major tournament.

 

It's swings and roundabouts really but they certainly we're failures.

[wabashcannonball 0]

With no disrespect to big Eck I, for one, find it hard to believe that he would have had the "success" he had without having had the luxury of Walter doing the donkey work before him. Eck took Walter's good work and basically stuck with what was already done by WS.

 

I am not trying to taint Eck's tenure, not at all, but I doubt that he would have been able to have done the job WS did had he been the one to follow Vogts.

 

You are just being silly now.