Do we really want Smith to stay?

[Guest Flying Hippo]

We should not go down the foreign route until we have the funds to overhaul the squad. Our team is 90% British, and will probably be entirely British outwith Papac and Edu by the start of next season, and British players notoriously respond better to British managers. Cliques and the like are the last thing we need next season

[calscot 0]

And what about year after year of embarrassment

 

When have Rangers not been an embarassment? Which Rangers manager hasn't gone out in the first round?

 

The best example is probably Dick Advocaat, who after spending �£50M of money we didn't have and which SDM ended up footing the bill for, got us to consistent European mediocrity. Extrapolating his results we could expect a yearly diet of 3rd in the CL (although would we qualify now - especially as it's far easier than winning the league and DA only had a 50% record in that competition) and then last 16 in the UEFA Cup.

 

However, that �£50m means that the fantasy of achieving the above, even with a light year manager, is not financially viable.

 

Even when we won the CWC, there was the ignominy of qualifying as runners up in the cup after Celtic won the double during their 9 in a row era - not a time I really want to emulate.

 

I just want to know why people think that we could do better in a competition that we've traditionally done badly in, never won and now have no hope of competing financially.

 

People are expecting us to be one of the top 16 teams in Europe when there are already 20 teams in England with much more money than us...

 

As I've said before, it's like Clyde supporters complaining their manager hasn't come close to winning the Scottish cup.

 

You only have to look at the performance of the rest of Scotland in Europe in the last couple of years to see how big a task we have.

 

There is no magic wand from foreigners and to say they are light years ahead is a weird one that obviously false. Even the slightest research into it will show it as a fallacy. That Alex Ferguson must be pretty darn lucky then.

 

You must think they have some sort of voodoo that we don't have.

 

In the end though your argument always disappears due to the fact that most foreign teams have foreign managers - so how do we beat them if we're all using the same voodoo? It doesn't make any sense.

 

People come out with this stuff like suggesting all we need is a foreign manager, yet don't seem to have an idea about what makes one team better than another. The only obvious one is money. There is nothing simple about the rest of it - the logic behind that is if managing a football team is as easy as following simple, obvious rules, then everyone would be doing it - and so again, who would win? The luckiest team? If that's the case then we better keep Walter, as according to some, he's the luckiest manager who ever lived...

[Totti 0]

Dick Advocaat built a side that outperformed some European heavyweights and had Mols not got injured things might have gone differently. We were also very unfortunate to get beat in the UEFA cup by a strong Feyenoord side that went on to win the competition. Ifs, buts and maybes perhaps but that side was sensational and Advocaat is a far superior manager to Smith. Maybe not when it comes to setting out a team to beat St Mirren on a rainy night but thats about it.

 

It's not unrealistic to expect us to challenge for the last 16 most seasons in the CL because most clubs of our size across Europe do so. Celtic have twice managed to get there in recent seasons.

 

Don't get your point about the 20 teams in England getting more when only 4 teams per season compete in the CL. The money the other Englishs sides have is irrelevant considering they have no involvement in this particular competition. England is a league that gets ridiciulous money. Teams in Portugal, Greece and Holland who have the last 16 several times in the past 10-15 years get a fraction of that in income.

 

What's strange about saying foreign managers are superior? No english manager has ever won the premiership. England are forced to go for foreign managers now because there's a lack of choice at home. And Alex Ferguson is a bit of a one off.

 

Moyes and Ferguson standout as two British managers that could be considered among the top in Europe but other than that the best managers are all abroad. They have more modern ideas, better culture and focus on technical football.

Edited April 29, 2010 by Totti

[rbr 1,247]

Sorry but Dick Advocatt geting the blame really does my head in , yes he identified players and often decided he didn't want them , but once again the guy who should be getting the blame or at the very least shouldering the blame is Murray who gave out contracts like a wean in a sweetie shop who is told help yourself kid , very often against medical advice and even against Advocatt's advice .

 

But Murray loved mixing it with the big boys , and felt we had finally made it .

 

 

He signed the cheques and he decided on length's of contracts , giving players nearly double what their agents wanted in certain cases , even the scottish lads clicked on very very quickly Derek McInnes went in asking for �£10,000 a week expecting possibly �£6 ,000 to be told no problem Derek much to the annoyance of his agent who stated upon leaving " we should have asked for �£15000 " , Murray spent money because he was arrogant and believed all the hype as Maineflyer stated before people especially in the press were calling him Mr Rangers and he lapped it up .

[Guest Flying Hippo]

Any proof behind that McInnes story? He signed in 1996 when the world's best only earned around �£25,000 a week so i highly doubt a man from Greenock Morton was earning 10 grand a week

[rbr 1,247]

There's no chance on this earth that Derek McInnes was on 10 grand a week at Rangers

 

He signed 15 years ago when global superstars were only earning about �£20,000

 

The man told me that story himself in the Houston inn two old firm games ago , he was in with Jody Morris and they were talking about players wages today , he used himself as an example .

 

I dont think some people realise the size of salaries we were dishing out to players at that time , and just to clarify that was not his initial salary when he first signed that was when he resigned .

 

 

As a side story Jody Morris is one very very funny guy and the stories he tells especially about Jody Kidd's parties you wouldn't believe and it's much too early to tell them on here !!!:giruy:

[wabashcannonball 0]

They were a rerr turn Johnny Kidd an the Pirates...

[calscot 0]

Dick Advocaat built a side that outperformed some European heavyweights and had Mols not got injured things might have gone differently. We were also very unfortunate to get beat in the UEFA cup by a strong Feyenoord side that went on to win the competition. Ifs, buts and maybes perhaps but that side was sensational and Advocaat is a far superior manager to Smith. Maybe not when it comes to setting out a team to beat St Mirren on a rainy night but thats about it.

 

Easy to do if's and buts for any manager: if Marseilles had been done for bribery we might have won the CL; if we didn't have so many injuries to crucial players in certain games we may have beaten Brugge and CSKA and gotten to the final; if Marseilles hadn't bribed CSKA they may not have won 6-0 and indeed may drawn.

 

But you're missing the point, Advocaat needs money to do his stuff and even though we were a relatively rich club, we still couldn't afford it (no matter who was sanctioning the spending), and he still didn't deliver. So what chance is there of being successful with the likes of Advocaat with the financial nightmare we have now.

 

You were obviously got into Rangers during the Advocaat era, but you don't seem to have sussed how false it was. Leeds did a similar spending spree to be successful in Europe and did a lot better than us, but look at them now. It's not real success when you put the future of the club at jeopardy to try and achieve it.

 

Basically we almost bankrupted ourselves for little return and if you can't see that it's not an option we can choose ever again, then there's no hope for you. Can you really imagine what Advocaat would be able to do with the squad we have and no money to spend? To build a team equivalent to his previous one would probably take about �£250M - you got some loose change around?

 

But the ironic thing is that despite the money spent, the debt accumulated, Advocaat lost the league with a huge point deficit - TWiCE. The guy is a good manager in some ways but he obviously has a very short shelf life at any club he goes to. It all goes sour very quickly which is why he's now move on again to Alkmaar. Walter's worst ever season is second by 2 points and trophies.

 

And again, even if you compare him to Walter in the European arena, in their best year they both got to the UEFA cup final. Advocaat may have come out on top, but consider, that if you had no knowledge of the managers or teams, but before the game knew that one club had spent far more money than the other, and that the same club had over two weeks rest before the final with no other competition on their minds, while the other team were playing something like 5 games in 12 days with four trophies to play for - with no other knowledge, who would you tip to win?

 

If we had wrapped up the league and had 10 days rest, the result may have been different.

 

It's not unrealistic to expect us to challenge for the last 16 most seasons in the CL because most clubs of our size across Europe do so. Celtic have twice managed to get there in recent seasons.

 

The two seasons they qualified they had a lot bigger squad than us, a lot more money and relatively easy groups. And how are they now? Lesser teams can sometimes get there but I don't think there are any that get there every season as it depends on luck or purple patches. So what team in our category qualifies for the last 16 most seasons? Sorry but it's a pipe dream.

 

Don't get your point about the 20 teams in England getting more when only 4 teams per season compete in the CL. The money the other Englishs sides have is irrelevant considering they have no involvement in this particular competition. England is a league that gets ridiciulous money. Teams in Portugal, Greece and Holland who have the last 16 several times in the past 10-15 years get a fraction of that in income.

 

The point is, even the worst team in the EPL is far richer than us, so how are we supposed to compete with the top? Then there are another 4 countries like England to compete with, then you've got Russia and Ukraine who are far outspending us.

 

You mention Portugal, Greece and Holland, who don't have the same money as the top 5 due to smaller populations but then they still have 3 to 5 times our population. This also means they have a lot more local talent to draw upon.

 

However, ironically all those countries are below Romania in the rankings and not doing so well.

 

What's strange about saying foreign managers are superior? No english manager has ever won the premiership. England are forced to go for foreign managers now because there's a lack of choice at home. And Alex Ferguson is a bit of a one off.

 

The strange thing is that you said that "foreign managers are light years ahead of ours". Do you realise the implications of what you said? You're implying that all foreign managers are better than ours, even their worst must be better than our best. You're say that they are better just because they are foreign.

 

The strange thing is that it's obviously untrue. There is a surfeit of evidence of British managers doing better than foreigners - you only have to look close to home and see Hughs thrashing his foreign counterpart at neighbouring Hearts and Lazlo is now out of a job. Even Craig Brown is better - and both those teams have spent far less money than Hearts.

 

Aberdeen - better under Scottish management or foreign?

Dundee Utd?

Hibs?

Hasn't Walter proved he was light years ahead of PLG in the same season, never mind the following three?

 

If foreign managers are automatically better then why don't all English clubs have one? Why are Ferguson, O'Neil, Moyes and Eck all sitting above foreigner managed teams?

 

It's a complete fallacy and I find it hard that anyone could believe such a poor generalisation.

 

Moyes and Ferguson standout as two British managers that could be considered among the top in Europe but other than that the best managers are all abroad. They have more modern ideas, better culture and focus on technical football.

 

It's easy to say the best of anything is abroad. Think about it. You're competing Scotland or Britain with the the whole of the rest of the world. 5 or 60 million people, against the other 6 billion. Sorry the odds are against us.

 

However, weirdly even a small country like Scotland can produce some of the best managers of all time. How does that go? How did WS manage to beat all those fantastic foreign managers on the way to the UEFA cup final? How did Strachan manage to get to the CL knock out stage?

 

You really can't expect such a broad generalisations to be taken even a little bit seriously; it holds less water than a broken sieve in the desert.

[calscot 0]

Sorry but Dick Advocatt geting the blame really does my head in , yes he identified players and often decided he didn't want them , but once again the guy who should be getting the blame or at the very least shouldering the blame is Murray who gave out contracts like a wean in a sweetie shop who is told help yourself kid , very often against medical advice and even against Advocatt's advice .

 

Sorry, who's blaming DA for the spending. It's not about blame, it's the fact that the money was spent and the success was hardly staggering - and this was at a time when we were already a relative rich club compared with the rest of Europe and the EPL.

 

We could not afford to spend the money and certainly can't now. If DA can only bring relatively mediocre success on far more spending than we could afford during our richest period, what would his results be if he took over now?

 

Come on, after his first two seasons he couldn't even finish single figures behind Celtic - when they brought in a good manager and spent half the money we did.

 

DA is good at bringing quick success if you throw money at him and then it goes pear shaped. That pretty much sums him up and the point you cannot in any way look to his era as something we should be doing again.

 

To do the same again we'd now need well over �£200M, so it's a silly comparison with today's situation.

 

I'm not blaming DA for the spending but again the point is that you cannot blame any Rangers manager now or in the past or future, for not having as good a team of individual footballers as Advocaat.

 

And remember, Advocaat won two leagues out of four and didn't get past the last 16 in the UEFA cup. Walter has done better than that in his second spell on very little money in comparison.

[gisabeer 409]

I find this a strange point. I think you'd find it hard to find a kid at 7 years old who will happily sit through a 90 minute live football game - no matter how good the football. They just don't have the interest level or attention span. However, kids do it and can be really into it when they look to their father and see him highly involved, excited and enjoying it.

 

When a father is sitting there thinking he's watching rubbish and wasting his time and money, there is not much chance his kid will be enjoying it.

 

To be honest, I would be surprised if a repeated exposure to a negative parental attitude at a tender age, didn't have a good chance of turning a kid off football for life.

 

7 year old boys look up to their fathers, if the father hates it and finds it boring, there is a pretty good chance he will too.

 

My son is intellegent enough to know good and bad football calscot. I take him in the hope that he will become a Ranger for life. walter Smith isnt doing me any favours in that department. And its the repeated exposure to negative football that is turning him off Rangers, not me. I encourage him at every oppertunity to support Rangers but the end product continually lets me down.