Ellis on the phone again

[Guest Northampton_loyalist]

This worries me, and I am not sure I would be as happy to picture a scene in which this was the case. I realise there is clearly big money involved, and this a big boys game, but NI your support for Ellis seems quite disproportionate to the facts we have. You said you supported him on forums before you talked to him, and obviously after talking to him. Is it loyalty because he is a friend of a friend, or is it a bit of star struckness or the prospect of being on familiar terms with the guy should he become the owner? None of these are bad, obviously, they are perfectly natural, but they are no reason why anyone other than you should be similarly optimistic. I realise you are not trying to convince people of anything, but I want to be enthusiastic, and so far all there appears to be is platitudes, with no clear reason why he wants the club or what he intends to do with it and for whom. You seem to have set out a stall to defend the guy when there is no real information one way or the other why anyone primarily interested in rangers and the good of the club should be similarly enthusiastic. Do you know something we dont? Or is it a hunch or a good feeling?

 

 

can you quote where i said that or showed any support please?

[bmck 117]

"I wrote a fair bit on FF saying that despite him being a developer we should hear him out etc and when the penny finally dropped about our mutual contact I had a good 3 weeks posting history of being 'open' to the whole idea. I cold called him, nothing more nor less the first time." I was refering to that. Maybe I am misreading the significance of your three week history of openness, but it certainly seems you are taking up - be it in a devils advocate sense or not - the possibilities and scenarios in which he is a good thing. I am really not asking anything other than what it is that gives you this positive perspective. I am not saying I wont share it or trying to catch you out in anyway - the whole business just looks a bit suspect to me, I cant fathom why he would want the club, and imagining scenarios in which he could technically get out of lying about having backers seems like the actions of someone at least pragmatically taking a postive stance. Do you feel like I have mischaracterised you in some way? If so, just say where. I am not trying to make a point here, just ask you a question.

[Guest Northampton_loyalist]

Open as in 'not writing him off without hearing what he has to say' as so many seem intent on doing. There is a groundswell of people saying this that or the other without himself actually telling us what he plans. I have posted consistently that we should not be chasing him off until we know what he intends, we need a buyer and they seem sparce at the minute. After speaking to him the first time he came across as very pleasant and intelligent, a good speaker and made it VERY clear that certain of peoples fears are without foundation so some of my natural suspicion was allayed. That has grown slightly with the subsequent contacts and right now I can say that I am looking forward to hearing his plan but still concerned about certain things.

 

If you have seen anything of my posts on FF you will realise I'm quite a one for getting into arguements because I will often take a point that nobody is siding with and give it some backing, In the interests of debating subjects fully. FF is full, as are all the other sites, with people who are writing him off already. I have taken the same evidence as them and applied the oposite thinking on occasion. Their 'what ifs' are based on nothing and so I add a few from the opposite perspective.

 

On top of that, I HOPE he buys the club and is as good as he likes to say he will be. Firstly we need a buyer and even one slightly less than perfect is still good so long as he passes the club off to the next guy in better shape. We cant go on as we are and a middling new owner is better than the status quo. Also, I, as I just said, have the feeling from talking to him that he has good plans for the club. That is a feeling and no more. Lastly, I want that damn interview off him to ram a few posts down peoples necks after yesterday and today

 

As a little evidence, i will cut an paste an article I wrote about 3 months ago that didnt get used and eventually went up as a post last week......gimme a sec.

 

3 months ago? that would be some skrying I meant 3 weeks. Actually, the date it went up in the contributers forum in the 8th March, so a shade over 3 weeks

Edited April 7, 2010 by Northampton_loyalist

[Guest Northampton_loyalist]

Do Rangers need a Rangers man at the top of the table? Since the story broke about Andrew Ellis being in talks with the club's major shareholder there has been some major concern expressed amongst the support.

 

Andrew Ellis is clearly a successful businessman, he has a track record of making money in his business life as an estate agent. He is also from a 'footballing' family; his father was chairman of QPR where Andrew served as a director for 10 years, the youngest in their history. Andrew Ellis has a history of involvement with football clubs beyond the time spent as a director at QPR, he bought Northampton town FC at a time of great turmoil and managed to add financial stability to the ailing club. His time with the Cobblers was soured by rumours of a move to the nearby city of Milton Keynes and a relegation but despite those factors he was regarded as a man who had brought financial stability to a club in trouble. The controversial appointment of the club's shortest serving manager, Terry Fenwick, added to the club's on-field troubles but away from the match-day problems his reign is looked back on by most Cobblers fans as a 'necessary evil'. The rumours of a move away from the club's Sixfields home, however, were met with widespread alarm amongst the small but passionate support.

 

If the rumours of a move being on the cards for the cobblers was a one off then it would be something that could be overlooked for fans of Rangers. Northampton town FC, other than one flurry of good results, have been perennial under-achievers. The town is the 3rd largest in Britain and could easily sustain a far more successful side, that it doesn't is something of an anomaly. It is understandable that an owner would look at the city of Milton Keynes with its good transport links and burgeoning population and see an avenue for increased success. Indeed, Wimbledon controversially made the move from London and are enjoying a rise through the leagues. Ellis, however, also has under his belt a failed bid for the club his father owned and the rumours of a Cobblers move are shown to be a repeat of his plans for QPR.

 

When QPR went into administration in 2001 Ellis made a bid of �£9million to buy the club. Central to his bid was the intention of selling the club's Loftus road stadium and relocating 20 miles to the Heathrow area of Greater London. Ellis' plans were met with widespread concern, from the fans the manager and even the council. Ultimately the deal fell through and QPR were bought by a fans group but a modus operendi seems to have been set.

 

Now, in 2010, Ellis is once again bidding to become the owner of a football club. Rangers are the target and it is now, before the club is signed sealed and delivered, that we need to be told exactly what his plans are for the institution. It would be easy to dismiss Ellis as a property developer looking to make some quick cash off the back of the most successful club in the world, his history points towards a willingness to discard history in favour of the future, a proclivity towards seeing property angles but until he lays out his plans we cannot and should not write him off as a capitalist looking to increase his wealth at any cost.

 

Take the QPR bid as an example. One of the major stumbling blocks was the requirement that he provide evidence of capital sufficient to fund the new �£100 million stadium near Heathrow. A move from Ibrox would rightly be met with scorn but in laying those plans he at the very least showed a wide ranging vision and a preparedness to spend large amounts of money on the fabric of the club. QPR's trade off would have been leaving their spiritual home in exchange for a a state of the art modern arena. We are lead to believe, from Sir David Murray, that the area around Ibrox is both ripe for development and that the GCC are open to selling plots at a knock down price; so, as a man with a track record in development and property Ellis could well see capital in putting into action the plans that were 'leaked' a handful of years ago for a regeneration of the area. A regeneration of the Ibrox are might not be feasible, it might be the best thing that ever happens to the club but it is something that Murray should have looked into far earlier than he did and it is something that any prospective owner should consider. At first glance his history shows plenty to be worried about but the simple fact is that until he makes clear his intentions we can only speculate.

 

One possible area for concern would be his lack of a grounding in the fabric of the club. Most Rangers fans would jump for joy should our next owner be a dyed in the wool Rangers man with impeccable credentials and a wad of cash. They, however, seem to be rather thin on the ground so we need to realistically look at the next best option. Ellis clearly has football in his blood and he clearly has made a huge success of his business life. Rangers need, above all else, a period of stability and a chance to build something for the future. For me that makes a non Rangers fan almost as attractive as a new owner compared to a true bluenose. The coming years, unless we are bought by Abramovic, will see some hard decisions needing to be made, some serious time spent on improving the basics at the club and some unemotional thinking on the way forward being put in. The models of business employed Sir David Murray brought a share of success but the cost of that success is being felt in the worst way. A change in direction is desperately needed and perhaps someone with no real ties to the club is the right candidate to implement policies that a true fan would baulk at? If I had �£10 million in the bank and the manager wanted it for a couple of players but I knew it could be spent on something that would benefit the club for 10 years, I cannot honestly say that I would make the right call, my support for the club would cloud the issue.

 

That argument can be balanced by the knowledge that should Ellis be successful in his bid, he will face a political situation unlike anything he will have experienced before and a media driven not be truth and honesty but by lies and agenda. Northampton are a small club, they fly under the radar of the tabloids in England and rarely merit a mention beyond their results. Rangers are a different kettle of fish and see more inches devoted in the papers than any individual club in England, on both the back and front pages. Dealing with the press and the politics of Scotland is no simple matter and it is certainly not something that Ellis will be able to breeze into without serious consideration. Someone with a knowledge of the club, its fans and history would be far better placed to deal with an intrusive media and where we are now dictates that one of the most important jobs any owner will face is trying to redress the imbalance left after Murray's tenure.

 

There will be three camps over the coming days; some will look at Ellis and see a rapacious businessman seeking out a cash cow to plunder with no thought of how it will affect the support, others will see a rich man with big plans looking to ride into the picture and save the club from doom. The third group will be right. They will be the people who are not swayed by pretty words or damning rumours but who wait to be told the plans that Ellis wants to bring to the table and who then take it or leave it on its own merits. Times are worrying for Rangers fans, we have long known that a change in ownership is coming and we have long known that it could be the single most important appointment in our history. Now it seems to be looming large we need to employ every bit of reasoning, every bit of common sense and refrain from making hasty judgements. Ellis showed that if the heat from the support is too great he is prepared to walk away, that gives us an edge and means that if his plans are to the detriment of our club we will have options. If we scare off a potential buyer before we even know his plans, though, we could be losing exactly what we need for the club.

 

Ellis, as a priority, needs to come out and be open and clear with the Rangers support. The club may be for sale, indicating an individuals 'ownership' but ultimately Rangers belongs to us, the support. We can withdraw that support and leave the owner high and dry. Rangers fans have suffered from a horrendous lack of clarity over the last few years (some will argue decades, and be right) and if Ellis wishes to make a good start, all he need do is be honest and open from the beginning. That needs to start today with a clear and concise explanation of his vision for the club.

[wabashcannonball 0]

According to "football" people whoever if anyone at all buys Rangers will not be buying to make money, more of a philanthropist, not a noted practice of property developing speculators, Elliot's tenure at the "Cobblers" could be a paradox to make even Carnegie smile....

[bmck 117]

Open as in 'not writing him off without hearing what he has to say' as so many seem intent on doing. There is a groundswell of people saying this that or the other without himself actually telling us what he plans. I have posted consistently that we should not be chasing him off until we know what he intends, we need a buyer and they seem sparce at the minute. After speaking to him the first time he came across as very pleasant and intelligent, a good speaker and made it VERY clear that certain of peoples fears are without foundation so some of my natural suspicion was allayed. That has grown slightly with the subsequent contacts and right now I can say that I am looking forward to hearing his plan but still concerned about certain things.

 

If you have seen anything of my posts on FF you will realise I'm quite a one for getting into arguements because I will often take a point that nobody is siding with and give it some backing, In the interests of debating subjects fully. FF is full, as are all the other sites, with people who are writing him off already. I have taken the same evidence as them and applied the oposite thinking on occasion. Their 'what ifs' are based on nothing and so I add a few from the opposite perspective.

 

On top of that, I HOPE he buys the club and is as good as he likes to say he will be. Firstly we need a buyer and even one slightly less than perfect is still good so long as he passes the club off to the next guy in better shape. We cant go on as we are and a middling new owner is better than the status quo. Also, I, as I just said, have the feeling from talking to him that he has good plans for the club. That is a feeling and no more. Lastly, I want that damn interview off him to ram a few posts down peoples necks after yesterday and today

 

As a little evidence, i will cut an paste an article I wrote about 3 months ago that didnt get used and eventually went up as a post last week......gimme a sec.

 

Mate, thats makes perfect sense and was really the sort of thing I was trying to ask for. Cheers. I dont visit any other rangers sites so have no real idea about general consenses and poster histories or anything of that sort which tends not to interest me in any case. I share your intuitions about a middling owner being better than our current one, and in cases where we necessarily cant know all the facts you are best to go with your gut - rationality often takes the long road round to where our instinct was naturally heading.

[Guest Northampton_loyalist]

Mate, thats makes perfect sense and was really the sort of thing I was trying to ask for. Cheers. I dont visit any other rangers sites so have no real idea about general consenses and poster histories or anything of that sort which tends not to interest me in any case. I share your intuitions about a middling owner being better than our current one, and in cases where we necessarily cant know all the facts you are best to go with your gut - rationality often takes the long road round to where our instinct was naturally heading.

 

I agree on the gut feeling part. I like a good fight with words so end up argueing points I have no belief in. Messageboards get very dull if one person posts that DJ is a fat uncle tom and 100 people post 'I agree'. In this case though, my point has remained absolutely constant from the off; We are not in a position to chase off potential buyers on a whim, we are certainly no better served by staying as we are and until Ellis speaks we are basing everything on assumption rather than fact. Take QPR and the Cobblers. Moves for them might have been viable, good even and lead to a resurgance. A move for us would not be good and would not lead to greater things. You know it, I know it, every fan in the country knows it. Why would Ellis NOT know it? There are avenues around the stadium that would give him a toehold on Glasgow development for very little outlay over and above the price of the club (reports of 1p/acre etc) which in turn allows him to build a reputation and have a foundation for expanding his company. He is also a football man, perhaps he sees one of the most famous and certainly the most successful club (s) in the world as an idea venture, particularly as there is great scope for improving us on and off the park (leading to a better price when/if he sells)?

 

As I said a month ago I say today, I wont be writing him off until I know what he intends, any other course is folly. Equally, I wont be assuming he is the perfect candidate and will lead us to glory. It is very much 'wait and see with an open mind'

[pete 2,499]

I reckon Dave King is maybe still involved here.

 

That is my thoughts as well Frankie and have put it up front a few times with a question mark. After all what does Ellis do but transactions between a buyer and a seller. Kings hands are tied by the SAR(?) but if he does have cash put away and he really wants to buy Rangers then picking a front man would be the way to do it.

[Zappa 0]

On top of that, I HOPE he buys the club and is as good as he likes to say he will be. Firstly we need a buyer and even one slightly less than perfect is still good so long as he passes the club off to the next guy in better shape. We cant go on as we are and a middling new owner is better than the status quo. Also, I, as I just said, have the feeling from talking to him that he has good plans for the club. That is a feeling and no more.

.

N_L, this particular section of what you've posted intrigues me. Firstly, you say that you 'HOPE he buys the club', but you appear to base that on nothing more than your instinct that Ellis or in fact virtually anything is better than where we are at the moment. You say that you hope he's as good as he likes to say he will be & that we need a buyer and even one slightly less than perfect is still good so long as he passes the club off to the next guy in better shape, but that seems like a BIG gamble to me considering that you say you don't know who his financial backers are, what his plans are and how secure the future of the club will be. Why would anyone 'hope' that some guy who comes along looking to buy the club with secret financial backers is successful without having some sort of reason other than the gut feeling gained from a couple of phone calls? Saying that we can't go on as we are with the current status quo is far from being a convincing argument & telling us that you 'feel' this or that from your conversations is even less convincing to be perfectly honest. I'm not trying to shoot you down, but there seems to be a lot of holes in your presentation here.

[Guest Northampton_loyalist]

.

N_L, this particular section of what you've posted intrigues me. Firstly, you say that you 'HOPE he buys the club', but you appear to base that on nothing more than your instinct that Ellis or in fact virtually anything is better than where we are at the moment. You say that you hope he's as good as he likes to say he will be & that we need a buyer and even one slightly less than perfect is still good so long as he passes the club off to the next guy in better shape, but that seems like a BIG gamble to me considering that you say you don't know who his financial backers are, what his plans are and how secure the future of the club will be. Why would anyone 'hope' that some guy who comes along looking to buy the club with secret financial backers is successful without having some sort of reason other than the gut feeling gained from a couple of phone calls? Saying that we can't go on as we are with the current status quo is far from being a convincing argument & telling us that you 'feel' this or that from your conversations is even less convincing to be perfectly honest. I'm not trying to shoot you down, but there seems to be a lot of holes in your presentation here.

 

Holes? We have not bought a player in more than 18 months, we have seen players leave and there is nothing to indicate that will change in the summer unless ownership is transferred. If Ellis comes in and is as good as his word we will immediatelly be in a better position regarding the playing staff, contracts and scope to buy. I firmly believe that the tie in with MIH is what is preventing us offer contracts and not simply our debt (which by all accounts is now manageable). ANY new owner removes the influence of MIH by default which will lead to an easier situation.

 

So, tell me what the gamble is in having a less than perfect owner when you compare it to the current situation. A less than perfect guy will be a site better than today, meaning a progression. If he passes the club on then we will have seen a net gain from his tenure. Better by far that he IS perfect, obviously, but in this situation and with the prospect of losing Boyd and any number of other top players with no replacements, a small improvement is a welcome improvement.

 

I would also like to know why myself, having at least spoken to the guy, am 'questionable' for wanting to see it happen yet others who have seen only 'property developer' and decided flat out they dont want the guy are free to hold those beliefs? I have been very clear that I am not prepared to just take him at face value, I am published as saying I need him to explain his plans, but in the absence of any credible offers from elsewhere and with a club that could (WILL) see further cuts on an already depleted squad in a scant 2 months I dont want to see my club stumble through another transfer window while shedding players, possibly the manager and his staff and seeing nothing but unready kids move in to fill the void. On top of the playing side, every year we pass with no improvement in the fabric of the club is another year wasted. So yes, at this minute n time I would FAR sooner have an imperfect owner than the current situation. If King or A.N Other were to jump in with a bid my hope would shift from 'I hope the deal goes through' to 'I hope one of these deals goes through', I simply cant see how it would be worse than the current situation and with the chats with Ellis putting my biggest fears to rest I am happy to hope it happens. That might change tomorrow if some new information comes out, I ont make up my mind and stick to it come hell nor high water.

 

Now, unlike others on here I have responded to every query put to me, tried to explain myself as well as my abilites allow and tried to not be wound up by people calling me a liar. I would resectfully request that if you want that to continue you apply the same level of questioning to Wabash, just in the interests of parity you understand.

 

Edit to add a small point I meant to put at the start.

 

Read the first sentance of the post you quoted again

 

'I hope he buys the club AND is as good as his word'

Edited April 7, 2010 by Northampton_loyalist