craig 5,199 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 As I understand it Bluedell tangible assets are of a physical nature, you would need a lot of pens and pencils, vehicles and plant to have �£630 million worth and not a building to put a desk in. You are looking at the wrong figures though spanner. The 630 million you talk about are the assets of the other MIH companies. The 630 is merely is a combining of all the other MIH companies, including Rangers. That DOES NOT mean the assets themselves are owned by MIH. Read my prior post and hopefully that helps. I wll try to explain more when I get home. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanner 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 You are looking at the wrong figures though spanner. The 630 million you talk about are the assets of the other MIH companies. The 630 is merely is a combining of all the other MIH companies, including Rangers. That DOES NOT mean the assets themselves are owned by MIH. Read my prior post and hopefully that helps. I wll try to explain more when I get home. Thanks craig, but I was aware of the figures I was looking at, someone has to drive the bus wouldn't you say it was the Holding company who drives the bus and owns everything in the bus, even down to the fuel in the tank. MIH would appear to have a lot of debt for not owning anything, perhaps controling may fit also, can't help feeling SDM is not out of the loop by a long chalk. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedell 5,679 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 To be fair though BD, Frankie asked this question here and some folks here are not members of RM and it IS a valid question and no reason, IMO, that it cant be asked to highlight pertinent questions on differing forums. When I said "we", I was referring specifically to me and Spanner. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 When I said "we", I was referring specifically to me and Spanner. I thought you were referring to yourself in the first AND second person - the man in the wee white van will be out for you soon.... 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 Thanks craig, but I was aware of the figures I was looking at, someone has to drive the bus wouldn't you say it was the Holding company who drives the bus and owns everything in the bus, even down to the fuel in the tank.MIH would appear to have a lot of debt for not owning anything, perhaps controling may fit also, can't help feeling SDM is not out of the loop by a long chalk. You are going to have to excuse my first statement here spanner....... FFS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Take a look at the Balance sheet of MIH - this is where the outstanding debt figure will appear. Tell me, how much debt does MIH have at January 31, 2007 per those financial statements ? If you come up with a figure which is anything other than 15 million quid (and even then it is for the repayment of preference shares) then we may as well end this discussion here because you are simply refusing to look where we (BD and I) are pointing you. So how would you determine that 15 million quid is "a lot of debt for not owning anything" ?? The GROUP debt is 643 million plus whatever is owed to the banks and other loan note holders which is due in less than a year (I couldnt be bothered adding the numbers up). This group debt is the accumulation of the debt of ALL MIH GROUP companies, not MIH itself. As each of these companies are its own legal entity they will be responsible for their own debt (unless, as I said earlier, they have something such as a parental guarantee in place) and, as such, the assets (unless assigned to someone else) would be those of the separate entities. Now, I will give you that 643 million is a lot of debt for not owning anything - but that debt is NOT the debt of MIH itself, but of the group companies in TOTAL (also worth pointing out is that this debt, due to consolidation rules, will be the amount of EXTERNAL debt. debt external to the companies, not debst owed by one group company to another). 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
maineflyer 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 This is really good entertainment. I hope you all continue through the night so that I can catch up over my cornflakes. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super_Ally 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 When will Graham Spiers finally be banned from Ibrox? Serious question. THis is genuinely a huge issue at Rangers for me. How does this scrotum of a man get hospitality, watching our team for free when many fans who would love to be there cannot attend due to various reasons (mostly financial and geographical)? Makes my blood boil. It is simply outrageous. This is really good entertainment. I hope you all continue through the night so that I can catch up over my cornflakes. Is it? I'm lost. 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanner 0 Posted November 17, 2009 Share Posted November 17, 2009 (edited) You are going to have to excuse my first statement here spanner....... FFS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Take a look at the Balance sheet of MIH - this is where the outstanding debt figure will appear. Tell me, how much debt does MIH have at January 31, 2007 per those financial statements ? If you come up with a figure which is anything other than 15 million quid (and even then it is for the repayment of preference shares) then we may as well end this discussion here because you are simply refusing to look where we (BD and I) are pointing you. So how would you determine that 15 million quid is "a lot of debt for not owning anything" ?? The GROUP debt is 643 million plus whatever is owed to the banks and other loan note holders which is due in less than a year (I couldnt be bothered adding the numbers up). This group debt is the accumulation of the debt of ALL MIH GROUP companies, not MIH itself. As each of these companies are its own legal entity they will be responsible for their own debt (unless, as I said earlier, they have something such as a parental guarantee in place) and, as such, the assets (unless assigned to someone else) would be those of the separate entities. Now, I will give you that 643 million is a lot of debt for not owning anything - but that debt is NOT the debt of MIH itself, but of the group companies in TOTAL (also worth pointing out is that this debt, due to consolidation rules, will be the amount of EXTERNAL debt. debt external to the companies, not debst owed by one group company to another). Oh I know how the debt has accrued Craig, could you just run past me again what the holding company is liable for, something in the region of �£470 million due is it, what do you think will happen if they default, do you think the holding company defaulting would be good news for the companies that the holding company owns, or do you think there would be a firesale of the assets the holding company somehow doesn't own, including RFC. What do you know of this company Craig and what they have been or are holding. Company Details - RFC INVESTMENT HOLDINGS LIMITED Registered No.SC132472 Address: 9 CHARLOTTE SQUARE, EDINBURGH, EH2 4DR Type: Private Limited with share capital Incorporation Date: 17-06-1991 Status: Small unquoted company filing only an abbreviated balance sheet Last Accounts Filed up to: 30-06-2008 Last Accounts Analysed: 30-06-2008 Nature of business SIC: 74150 - Management activities of holding companies Edited November 17, 2009 by spanner 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craig 5,199 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) Oh I know how the debt has accrued Craig, could you just run past me again what the holding company is liable for, something in the region of �£470 million due is it, what do you think will happen if they default, do you think the holding company defaulting would be good news for the companies that the holding company owns, or do you think there would be a firesale of the assets the holding company somehow doesn't own, including RFC.What do you know of this company Craig and what they have been or are holding. Company Details - RFC INVESTMENT HOLDINGS LIMITED Registered No.SC132472 Address: 9 CHARLOTTE SQUARE, EDINBURGH, EH2 4DR Type: Private Limited with share capital Incorporation Date: 17-06-1991 Status: Small unquoted company filing only an abbreviated balance sheet Last Accounts Filed up to: 30-06-2008 Last Accounts Analysed: 30-06-2008 Nature of business SIC: 74150 - Management activities of holding companies I am not sure you do understand these financials spanner. Can we just clarify though - you said initially that the money stuff goes over your head (or words to that effect) yet now you are saying you know how the debt is accrued - which one are you or are you two different people sharing the same account on here ? Doesnt make a difference to me, I just would like to know if I am talking to a layperson or someone who understands accounts. For the avoidance of doubt can you tell me where you obtain your figure of 470 million ? The only place I can see such number is from the total borrowings in Note 16 in the financials for creditors due after more than one year. Is that where you are locating the 470 million from ? If it is, once again you are incorrect. That particular figure, if you spend just a touch of time looking at that note, is actually the comparative for the GROUP, not the holding company. The 470 million is the 2006 group figure, not the standalone company figure. Let me see if I can make this a but clearer. If you look at the MIH numbers on a standalone basis they have 15 million pounds worth of debt and other liabilities of 3.5 million for a total outstanding obligation to others of 18.5 million. This is offset by cash balances of 35.5 million and other assets (being their investments in subsidiaries and other debtors) of 1.9 million for total assets of 37.4 million. This meant that MIH on a standalone basis had NET ASSETS of circa 19 million. Now, as I said before, and I hope you read it rather than ignored it is, on a standalone basis MIH has just 15 million of debt and, given cash balances of 35 million that would not prove a concern to the bank (other than ensuring that the cash balances were generating enough income to service that debt). The debt of the group as a whole i.e. the consolidation of all the group companies, is 643 million plus the amounts due in less than a year (58.5 million in overdrafts, 1.6 mill in secured bank loans, 1.7 mill in loan notes) - for clarity, I am talking about DEBT only here, not the total liabilities like I was in the standalone basis. Now, this 643 million (plus) is NOT MIH debt but the debt of MIH companies. In simplistic terms this means that all the debt of all the companies owned by MIH is 643 million. However, unless there are cross-company or parental guarantees then there would be no obligation from any one company for the other's debt obligations - the only thing they have in common is that they have the same ultimate owner. However, now that we have taken the simplistic look.... if you take a look at Note 24 on contingent liabilities and guarantees you will see that MIH guaranteed the borrowings of other subsidiaries to the tune of 290.93 million. So MIH DOES have obligations on behalf of the other group companies. However, these would play out reasonably easily in the event that MIH cannot meet those obligations (but see the next paragraph to see how this plays out in reality). If MIH could not pay these debts then the parental guarantee fails, MIH defaults on its covenant to the bank to whom they granted the parental guarantee and those debts would fall due to the bank by the company who has received the loan/debt. And it is at this point that you would have to go to the accounts of the company that owes the debt to see what they owe. Which would mean looking at RFC accounts to see what debt they owe - but you certainly wouldn't go to any of the other MIH companies and expect RFC to have to pay THEIR debt obligation. Each company is its own legal entity and would have to pay for its own debt, but highly unlikely tohave to pay the debt of other MIH companies. This should answer your "firesale" question but in case it escaped you, you asked "what do you think will happen if they default, do you think the holding company defaulting would be good news for the companies that the holding company owns, or do you think there would be a firesale of the assets the holding company somehow doesn't own, including RFC." Let me make this clear that MIH does not play the primary role here. The obligation is NOT that of MIH unless and until any of the group companies that it is guaranteeing debts for has defaulted itself. The purpose of a parental guarantee is for the parent company (MIH) to guarantee the debts of one of its subsidiaries in the event that the subsidiary cannot pay the debt itself. So, that said, if we got to the stage that MIH was required to make good on its parental guarantee and it couldnt, then we would likely be in trouble because for MIH to have to make good on the guarantee it would require RFC to have to have defaulted on its loan payments first. If RFC was to see a firesale of its assets it would be because RFC couldnt pay its own debts, but nothing more than that and nothing to do with MIH. Sorry, I dont know much at all about RFC Investment Holdings and given I fly back to the UK on Thursday and am busy at work till then I will have to apologise for not having the time to do any research so will defer to BD or perhaps boss to enlighten you as I am sure one or the other of them will have some info. Sorry to all for the long-winded post Edited November 18, 2009 by craig 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanner 0 Posted November 18, 2009 Share Posted November 18, 2009 (edited) Thanks Craig, now that we have gone all around the houses to conclude that MIH has debt because it has been spending the banks money, a ratio of about 86% bank 16% MIH, I would refer you to http://www.gersnetonline.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?p=177864#post177864 particularily my last sentence, off now to walk the Greyhounds. ETA. good read for we uninitiated, but probably wont tell you anything you don't know. http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/more-scottish-football/scottish-football-in-crisis-money-too-tight-to-mention-1.932840 Edited November 18, 2009 by spanner 0 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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