Lloyds - Update from David Edgar (RST)

[maineflyer 0]

We will never agree with regards the RST so there is very little point debating it ,as for this list you want again there is no point for you would definetly win as there has been very little achieved as such , but that depends on what your definition of achievement is , when you consider the RST is fighting not only Murray but his media poodles and that the majority of our fans are unable to even think for themselves anymore then you can see what they are up against .

 

Remember this is just a voluntary fans organisation that is trying for a better Rangers , as far as I am concerned the continual beratement of Murray , the "We Deserve Better " campaign even though it was rubbished by the press is an achievement as is encourages debate and at this time that can only be a good thing , for far too long we have been run in an atrocious manner even thoug the press would have you believe Murray is god , even Derek Johnstone last week stated that Rangers had not won anything for a few years before Murray took over and were going nowhere , well David Holmes and Graeme Souness may have a thing to say about that .

 

So we will have to agree to disagree however I refuse to slaughter anyone for wanting a better Rangers , you obviously disagree and you have your own opinions on the Rst and I take it also the Assembly who are also unelected and club financed . So just where do the fans go in your opinion , who should speak for them as I have never seen such a pathetic bunch of supporters in my 34 years of supporting this once great club , you know maybe we dont deserve better , maybe we deserve exactly what we have got and that isn't much .

 

Remember opinions are like arseholes , we all have one !!!

 

You know, I've almost never started a topic about the RST. I only usually respond to their various announcements, so any idea that I go around hounding them is nonsense. If they ever actually changed anything for the better, I wouldn't be slow to congratulate them. However, neither am I inclined to hold back criticism when the same old self-promotion-based-on fukk-all is trotted out by people who are happy to accept the recognition afforded by the media but unprepared to addrss the root causes of many of our ills. I still have correspondence somewhere from the RST asking that we stop any overt criticism of Murray or club management because this would "Jeopardise the relationship between the Trust and the chairman of Rangers". Then I received a letter from the current chairman of the RST stating that the Trust would be adopting a much more "militant" approach to the Rangers board - "watch this space" he told me - and two years later I'm still waiting. I have many examples of where the Trust has let themselves and the support down badly.

 

Remember, I joined he RST as a member, then forked out 100 notes for a life membership, because I really believed this was the way to influence the decisions of the Rangers board. If I now appear to be frustrated with the RST then that's because I am. Grossly frustrated at the wasted opportunity. All you ever seem to get from the Trust are empty words, usually about the Trust itself.

 

So when people come on fans forums with the express purpose of saying they are to become members of the RST board, I think it's fair game to comment on it. I think it's fair to ask why they are joining and what aims and objectives they take with them. When they respond that they will need to wait and see what the existing bunch of failures want them to do, I already know it's a pointless exercise and I've little hesitation in saying so.

 

Similarly, when I hear the RST spokesman lying to a direct question from a radio interviewer about membership numbers, I get even more disappointed at the way the Trust has been hijacked and misdirected. Everyone knows the membership numbers are pathetic and we all know why this is the case, but the Trust just keeps on lying and deflecting the truth. I don't give a monkeys what the actual membership numbers are but I do care that the Trust cannot be openly honest about it and, even more importantly, cannot operate in such a way that attracts new members rather than driving away existing ones.

 

What is the point of continuing to support the RST board after years of failure, just because they're a bunch of "volunters" who "want a better Rangers". I'm sure they all want a better Rangers but if they're not the people who can deliver anything in that direction then they need to stop pretending they are. In my world, results are what count, not empty words.

 

I'm made it plain I'm a big believer in a Rangers Supporters Trust - but only one that actually works. That comes down to the people running it and we currently do not have the right people. That much is self-evident, not because I say so but because of what we can all see.

 

The only viable answer to supporter representation is to have a single elected body and the Supporters Trust is the ideal vehicle. But it need to be democratic in more than just intent. How many of the current board have been co-opted rather than elected? Too many. How many of the current board have been elected by more than a handful of votes? Too few. That's why a healthy membership is absolutely vital in ensuring the RST does not become a comfort club for an elite and self-sustaining few. The wasted opportunity here is collossal and it's all because two or three individuals have decided they will run the Trust and they will not be accountable. Why are objectives not published, reported against and used as benchmarks to judge effectiveness - like any other business. Why not - you know the answer. Why has the relationship between senior Trust board members and David Murray been allowed to dictate Trust activity (I nearly said Trust policy but that would have been insincere, we don'y have one)? It's not the ordinary fans who are most culpable when it comes to swalling the shit dished up by Murray - there are others who have acted in a far more "pathetic" manner.

 

It took fans, including many of the regular posters on Gersnet, a long time to accept that Murray wasn't some kind of benign God. It seems to be taking the same people even longer to acknowledge that some of our "representatives" have been either complicit or compliant in the mismanagement of Rangers. Eventually we'll all get there, some just taking longer than others.

[Frankie 8,665]

Rather than get into arguments about who did what and when, I'm more interested in the here and now....

 

Who is the consortium/prospective buyer that the fan groups are in dialogue with and what are their plans for the club that deserve our support?

[maineflyer 0]

Who is the consortium/prospective buyer that the fan groups are in dialogue with and what are their plans for the club that deserve our support?

 

Or.... to continue the theme.....

 

Why don't we know which consortium/prospective buyer the fan groups are in dialogue with? ... and ... What are their plans for the club that we should know about?

 

Or are we still in the believe that our representatives know what is good for us?

[craig 5,199]

 

Or are we still in the believe that our representatives know what is good for us?

 

That, to me, is the crux of this.

 

What we are hearing is that the "representatives" are in dialogue - but do we really know what acument those representatives have to determine who is "good" for us ?

[Frankie 8,665]

Barca models are all well and good (and I'd love to see something workable in that regard) but I'd like to know much more about who is involved and how the scheme would be administered before I contributed my �£1000...*

 

 

 

 

 

 

* asked wife for �£1000.

[craig 5,199]

Barca models are all well and good (and I'd love to see something workable in that regard) but I'd like to know much more about who is involved and how the scheme would be administered before I contributed my �£1000...*

 

 

 

 

 

 

* asked wife for �£1000.

 

Exactly - time is of the essence so why is it that it is still so very secretive. I know that they will want to issue a fully-cooked plan of action but there is no need to be secretive with who is going to be involved.

 

I think the supporter membership idea is a cracking idea to be honest - but the club still, after initial investment, needs to operate under its own steam because the fans surely cant continue to blindly subsidise.

 

A lot needs to be ironed out with this potential plan and it needs to be done quite quickly.

[maineflyer 0]

I could contribute nothing until and unless I understood exactly what the funds would be used for and who would be overseeing the project. There's been far too much already of asking for money and then thinking how it should be used ... or not used as it turned out.

 

This tendency to secrecy is what always allows the incompetent to justify their involvement. Those who already know where they're going and how to get there are seldom interested in secrecy. Quite the contrary in fact.

 

Ifr there is going to be any fans involvement in the future of the club then we really do need to change the way we conduct our affairs.

[Bluedell 5,679]

If the fans' groups have entered negotiations then it would be normal business practice not to disclose the fact until there was at least a draft proposal on the table.

 

Coming out at this stage just raises expectations and it appears that nothing of any substance has been agreed.

 

The reports don't even say which fans' groups.

 

The stories may not be true and be planted by the bank to try and force Dave King into the open or cause a split in the support.

[maineflyer 0]

If the fans' groups have entered negotiations then it would be normal business practice not to disclose the fact until there was at least a draft proposal on the table.

 

Coming out at this stage just raises expectations and it appears that nothing of any substance has been agreed.

 

It's not just about what proposals are being drafted though. If someone is representing me then I'd like to know what they're sitting down with in the first place. My point is that I don't exactly see much basis to trust (?) these people to negotiate for anyone unless I can see their parameters in advance. After all, exactly who are they 'representing' right now .... themselves or the wider fanbase who have absolutely no idea what objectives are being pursued? Strange business, this representation malarky. Stranger still at Rangers, it seems.

 

Edit..... and God forbid we should have expectations.

[rbr 1,267]

You know, I've almost never started a topic about the RST. I only usually respond to their various announcements, so any idea that I go around hounding them is nonsense. If they ever actually changed anything for the better, I wouldn't be slow to congratulate them. However, neither am I inclined to hold back criticism when the same old self-promotion-based-on fukk-all is trotted out by people who are happy to accept the recognition afforded by the media but unprepared to addrss the root causes of many of our ills. I still have correspondence somewhere from the RST asking that we stop any overt criticism of Murray or club management because this would "Jeopardise the relationship between the Trust and the chairman of Rangers". Then I received a letter from the current chairman of the RST stating that the Trust would be adopting a much more "militant" approach to the Rangers board - "watch this space" he told me - and two years later I'm still waiting. I have many examples of where the Trust has let themselves and the support down badly.

 

Remember, I joined he RST as a member, then forked out 100 notes for a life membership, because I really believed this was the way to influence the decisions of the Rangers board. If I now appear to be frustrated with the RST then that's because I am. Grossly frustrated at the wasted opportunity. All you ever seem to get from the Trust are empty words, usually about the Trust itself.

 

So when people come on fans forums with the express purpose of saying they are to become members of the RST board, I think it's fair game to comment on it. I think it's fair to ask why they are joining and what aims and objectives they take with them. When they respond that they will need to wait and see what the existing bunch of failures want them to do, I already know it's a pointless exercise and I've little hesitation in saying so.

 

Similarly, when I hear the RST spokesman lying to a direct question from a radio interviewer about membership numbers, I get even more disappointed at the way the Trust has been hijacked and misdirected. Everyone knows the membership numbers are pathetic and we all know why this is the case, but the Trust just keeps on lying and deflecting the truth. I don't give a monkeys what the actual membership numbers are but I do care that the Trust cannot be openly honest about it and, even more importantly, cannot operate in such a way that attracts new members rather than driving away existing ones.

 

What is the point of continuing to support the RST board after years of failure, just because they're a bunch of "volunters" who "want a better Rangers". I'm sure they all want a better Rangers but if they're not the people who can deliver anything in that direction then they need to stop pretending they are. In my world, results are what count, not empty words.

 

I'm made it plain I'm a big believer in a Rangers Supporters Trust - but only one that actually works. That comes down to the people running it and we currently do not have the right people. That much is self-evident, not because I say so but because of what we can all see.

 

The only viable answer to supporter representation is to have a single elected body and the Supporters Trust is the ideal vehicle. But it need to be democratic in more than just intent. How many of the current board have been co-opted rather than elected? Too many. How many of the current board have been elected by more than a handful of votes? Too few. That's why a healthy membership is absolutely vital in ensuring the RST does not become a comfort club for an elite and self-sustaining few. The wasted opportunity here is collossal and it's all because two or three individuals have decided they will run the Trust and they will not be accountable. Why are objectives not published, reported against and used as benchmarks to judge effectiveness - like any other business. Why not - you know the answer. Why has the relationship between senior Trust board members and David Murray been allowed to dictate Trust activity (I nearly said Trust policy but that would have been insincere, we don'y have one)? It's not the ordinary fans who are most culpable when it comes to swalling the shit dished up by Murray - there are others who have acted in a far more "pathetic" manner.

 

It took fans, including many of the regular posters on Gersnet, a long time to accept that Murray wasn't some kind of benign God. It seems to be taking the same people even longer to acknowledge that some of our "representatives" have been either complicit or compliant in the mismanagement of Rangers. Eventually we'll all get there, some just taking longer than others.

 

I must firstly appologise maineflyer , having posted for many years on FF it is almost second nature to get your retaliation in early as they say , you speak with great clarity and passion and to be fair I wouldn't disagree with much of what you wrote , however we are where we are and if fans groups can get together for the greater good then surely we can show a bit of good will towards people who also have the clubs best will at heart , David Edgar like him or not can never be portrayed as a self important attention seeker , no one would volunteer themselves for his role out of self interest and also he has done a sterling job of defending the club and trying to move the debate on.

 

I cannot say the same for the rest of the RST board , as I have only been to a couple of Agm's they do as you say co-opt many appointees and I also agree that certain members may have their own self interests at heart , however in this time of need I would be saddened if these interests were put ahead of the clubs .

 

Anyway I think you have probably won this particular arguement so I am saying no more other than to hope all those who are postureing behind the scenes , whether they be Dave King , Douglas Park or whoever get their fingers out for the sake of our club