'Setting The Standard' Project Moves Forward

[Frankie 8,665]

This just gets stranger and stranger. Perhaps it's me.

 

You say the chairman quoted the UEFA directive in the Wee Blue Book, which is correct. But not once does it quote any UEFA directive that mentions TBB. Nor does the Wee Blue Book make even one mention of TBB.

 

You mention a joint club/supporter statement, which is actually an Assembly statement that alludes to the club's position on this matter - it is not a club statement and as such only further reinforces my central point.

 

You then quote from the Daily Record which, if you'll forgive me, I wouldn't wipe my arse with and don't think adds anything credible to the debate.

 

The club making tannoy announcements about TBB certainly doesn't show that UEFA banned the song. All it shows is the club enacting its own ban.

 

UEFA fined the club for the reasons given in the UEFA statements, none of which ever said that any fine was imposed due to TBB having been sung. That is a fact and is there for anyone to read and confirm.

 

You again mention that the Assembly statement says UEFA banned TBB. Which is what I have said all along - that the supporter groups reported the club's statement to them that UEFA had banned TBB - the Assembly could not and did not report any statement from UEFA that TBB was banned. Just because the Assembly reported that UEFA had banned TBB, I'm afraid that isn't the same as UEFA actually banning the song. The Assembly simply did the club's bidding and reported what the club had told them. The only specific connection between the UEFA sanctions and the banning of TBB came from the Assembly and sundry other supporter groups, who took their information from the club alone.

 

You say that Rangers, the media and UEFA all mentioned TBB in their various statements, which is true. You then say that you only "believe" that UEFA banned the song - and the reason you only believe this is that there isn't one shred of evidence you can hold up to show that they did. You know it and I know it, that the connection is circumstantial and holds up only because it suited the club's agenda to make that connection - and too many supporters have accepted the club's spin.

 

You may not believe the club fraudulently fasified UEFA directives (your words). I might disagree, although whether or not I would use such emotive language is another thing.

 

You may also choose to believe the outcome was inevitable in any case. At no time have I ever attempted to argue otherwise. As I've said many times, that's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

 

It's clear there is nothing new that is going to prove UEFA specifically banned TBB. Not from the Assembly, not from the club and certainly not from UEFA. I've said my piece on this and it's up to everyone to do their own research and judge the facts for themselves. My own position is unchanged.

 

So do you think Rangers FC fraudulently falsified the UEFA directives? That's not emotive language just language that covers what you are saying has happened.

 

UEFA fined the club for discriminatory chanting based on the Billy Boys song which they specifically mentioned was the song involved in the case. They also said they'd communicate the directives decided because of this to the club - who in turn had to communicate them to the fans. As far as I can see that has been done - even if the actual directives/letter may or may not have been seen by the fans involved. Certainly the directives seem to be suitable given the UEFA statements during the case.

 

I do think the facts speak for themselves - even if the evidence may not be as clear as it could be to satisfy the more obstinate of us...

 

As B_S has said, I'm going to try a different tact on this. Doubt it will work actually but it will be worth a try...

[maineflyer 0]

So do you think Rangers FC fraudulently falsified the UEFA directives? That's not emotive language just language that covers what you are saying has happened.

You're playing with words - I just wanted it made clear these were your words, not mine. If you think they cover the situation, who am I to argue. Generally, I prefer to select my own words.

 

UEFA fined the club for discriminatory chanting

Undeniably correct.

 

based on the Billy Boys song which they specifically mentioned was the song involved in the case.

The certainly mentioned TBB but they neither banned it nor did they ask for it to be banned.

 

They also said they'd communicate the directives decided because of this to the club - who in turn had to communicate them to the fans. As far as I can see that has been done - even if the actual directives/letter may or may not have been seen by the fans involved.

Yes but the "directives" announced to the fans were not the UEFA directives - they were the club's own directives - which were never specified by the club, only by the supporters groups. Nothing issued by the club has ever mentioned TBB as far as I can see.

 

Certainly the directives seem to be suitable given the UEFA statements during the case.

That's a value judgement for everyone to make for themselves. I've never questioned appropriateness.

 

 

I don't know why you continue to re-state what has never been in dispute. The issue here is not what we can all see actually happened, but that the club used supporters groups to state that the banning of this specific song had been made by UEFA - when it was plainly banned by the club and not UEFA at all.

 

I do think the facts speak for themselves - even if the evidence may not be as clear as it could be to satisfy the more obstinate of us...

That very much depend on whether you're talking about the actual facts or about what you have taken to be a reasonable asumption based upon the facts. "I believe...."

 

As B_S has said, I'm going to try a different tact on this. Doubt it will work actually but it will be worth a try...

I'm sure it will be interesting and may change some assumptions - but I somehow doubt if it will change any of the facts since these are already established - even if some of the more obstinate amongst us continue to refuse to acknowledge them.

[Frankie 8,665]

At the risk of going round in circles, the directives announced to the fans by the club were claimed to be the UEFA directives according to the Joint Club/Supporter statement which was made publicly available on a variety of official and unofficial media.

 

These directives also do specifically mention TBB being 'prohibited'. Although I do concede that information is not available directly from UEFA - even if their previous comments would indicate the directives were theirs.

 

You concede the club were punished for discriminatory chanting. What chants were these then if it wasn't TBB? By immediate and obvious association (if not clear-cut wording) of course that song now becomes proscribed by that organisation.

 

I do appreciate I'm being obstinate myself here but I am basing my opinion on information which is openly available and reasonably clear enough to suggest UEFA did fine us because of TBB and so that song is now proscribed by them as per the directives attributed to them publicly by Rangers.

 

If these directives and their source are false, then that does become fraud - my words not yours obviously - but a fair description of the situation. Somehow I think UEFA would have something to say about that if it were the case.

[Tannochsidebear 2,429]

Dont want to get involved in your tet-a-tet here, but if I remember correctly the club were only fined �£14,000 at the time, and that was for a media bus window being smashed and not for discriminatory chanting.

 

When the appeal by UEFA to their own decision was upheld and TBB was banned and we were warned as to our future conduct in this regard and made to make announcements etc, was there a further fine imposed?

[Frankie 8,665]

See the time-line in post 57 (page 6 of this thread) TB...

 

We were initially fined €13,000 for the bottle incident (the Villarreal team bus in this case - the media bus was Celtic fans some time later) but on appeal, we were then also fined a further €19,500 and severely warned about in relation to sectarian and discriminatory behaviour.

 

TBB was specifically mentioned in the initial action but omitted from the conclusive censure - though then mentioned again in the alleged directives UEFA decreed to Rangers. The debate between MF and I is whether or not these directives are genuine - created by UEFA or created by Rangers FC implicating UEFA.

 

http://www.gersnetonline.co.uk/vb/showpost.php?p=165584&postcount=57

Edited September 7, 2009 by Frankie

[Tannochsidebear 2,429]

I remember now Frankie. Imagine me getting mixed up with the buses!! It was of course the Villarreal team bus, although nobody was injured thankfully.

 

I thought even that was harsh on us given that it wasn't our home tie, and any trouble outside the ground would surely be the fault of the home side to police adequetely.

 

The site of the Villarreal ground was a death trap, and the Spanish police were useless, but all that was obviously our fault for wishing to follow our team in the last 16 of the CL.

 

If TBB was specifically mentioned in the initial action by UEFA, and their own appeal against their original decision was upheld, it could only be the facts relating to the original case that we were sanctioned for after the appeal.

 

You cannot have an appeal that does not refer specifically to the events and charges of the original case. Therefore it is obvious that it was TBB that we were done for on appeal.

 

Surely MF cannot be saying that although TBB was specifically mentioned in the original case that got thrown out, we were sanctioned after the appeal for another song, or just for discriminatory chanting without it referring to this particular song?

 

That makes no sense whatsoever.

[Frankie 8,665]

 

If TBB was specifically mentioned in the initial action by UEFA, and their own appeal against their original decision was upheld, it could only be the facts relating to the original case that we were sanctioned for after the appeal.

 

You cannot have an appeal that does not refer specifically to the events and charges of the original case. Therefore it is obvious that it was TBB that we were done for on appeal.

 

Surely MF cannot be saying that although TBB was specifically mentioned in the original case that got thrown out, we were sanctioned after the appeal for another song, or just for discriminatory chanting without it referring to this particular song?

 

That makes no sense whatsoever.

 

Yep, that's how I interpret the available evidence as well.

 

The final UEFA censure may not be as clear as we'd like (and it is a pity the full official letter isn't in the public domain) but I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that Rangers made up the UEFA directives which said TBB was 'prohibited'.

[Tannochsidebear 2,429]

As I said before if anybody can show me any other example of where the club will publish official correspondence from any footballing body about disciplinary affairs, I would maybe have some sympathy with the stance taken in this thread.

 

But it would seem usual to me that official letters from UEFA are not published by the club. I dont remember any fuss about the letter informing us of Lafferty's suspension not being published, or the letter from UEFA about the bus incident not being published.

 

Perhaps the club just made these up too.

 

I find it difficult to find anyone who criticises the running of our club more than me, perhaps I now have.

[maineflyer 0]

As I said before if anybody can show me any other example of where the club will publish official correspondence from any footballing body about disciplinary affairs, I would maybe have some sympathy with the stance taken in this thread.

 

But it would seem usual to me that official letters from UEFA are not published by the club. I dont remember any fuss about the letter informing us of Lafferty's suspension not being published, or the letter from UEFA about the bus incident not being published.

 

Perhaps the club just made these up too.

 

I find it difficult to find anyone who criticises the running of our club more than me, perhaps I now have.

The difference with the Lafferty suspension is that it didn't result in the club banning players from cinemas because it exposed them to acting. Likewise, the UEFA letter about the bus window being smashed didn't see the club ban fans from travelling to matches in buses.

 

I couldn't care if the club publish or don't publish UEFA's letters, or letters from anyone else for that matter ..... only that they don't use UEFA punishments to concoct something else and then claim it was UEFA all along.

 

This isn't about finding an excuse to criticise the club. For years now I've listened to the media and our own fans tell me that UEFA banned The Billy Boys and that's the reason why it cannot again be sung. That is fundamentally untrue. There would undoubtedly be all sorts of problems if we did sing that song again but that has nothing whatsoever to do with any point I've been making.

 

I'm sorry if this is hard to follow but I think I've been entirely consistent throughout.

[maineflyer 0]

Yep, that's how I interpret the available evidence as well.

 

The final UEFA censure may not be as clear as we'd like (and it is a pity the full official letter isn't in the public domain) but I don't buy into the conspiracy theory that Rangers made up the UEFA directives which said TBB was 'prohibited'.

 

Frankie, it can hardly be described as a conspiracy theory - merely a conclusion reached after examining the evidence and discounting convenient assumptions on either side.