'Setting The Standard' Project Moves Forward

[Tannochsidebear 2,429]

I didn't say directives, did I?

 

I said that the SFA/SPL were coming under increasing pressure to apply sanctions, available through existing age-old regulations, by the timmy mhedia, for our continual singing of TBB.

 

Why do you feel it necessary for the club to publish a letter from UEFA showing verbatem the actual words "TBB is banned".

 

What official letters from the SPL/SFA/UEFA have the club ever published on any matter in the past that would make the non-publication of this letter such a conspiracy?

 

I, like many bears, loved belting out TBB, it was our anthem, and sung immediately after Follow Follow, it raised the roof off Ibrox at big games more than any other song.

 

But our custodian capitulated totally in the UEFA courts, and was probably more than happy to have it banned after the appeal.

 

Do your searches from the papers at the time, the UEFA archives, it was clear that the song was banned in any guise, even if we changed the words. Also extremely unfairly, the opposition are allowed to sing it to us, changing just two words, without fear of any questioning or discipline.

 

However that is where we are, and is one of many complaints laid at the door of our now former chairman that we can do nothing about now.

 

You must realise that Timmy is just waiting for this to return, to send off their letters in their droves to their friends in high places, and to get us done again. Look how quickly a routine dodgy penalty turned into a European wide debate about diving and a 2 game ban for Eduardo, they truly are the masters of PR and spin and have such influence we could only dream of.

 

TBB is still alive in the pubs, clubs, on the buses and at the functions, but not at the matches. It is never coming back, of that I am certain, and whilst you are perfectly entitled to believe your conspiracy theories, they are completely without proper foundation i'm afraid.

[maineflyer 0]

Do your searches from the papers at the time, the UEFA archives, it was clear that the song was banned in any guise, even if we changed the words.

 

OK, I'll try saying this once more. I'm not disputing that the club or the Scottish authorities, stoked by the rhepublican media, wanted the song banned. I'm not even trying to establish a basis for its return. All I'm saying is that the club contrived the banning on a false basis and basically lied to the support.

 

I've pretty much read everything that can be found on this matter and asked the RST and a number of those who were present at meetings with the club. But unless you or anyone else has new evidence that I don't know about, it's clear to me that UEFA banning TBB is nothing more than a convenient myth. It also seems that the SPL/SFA did not directly ban this song. Rather, the club was pressurised from all sides and was panicked into an action of its own making. Even that is fair enough but at least they could have had the balls to tell it like it was instead of spinning the matter until no one knew what had actually happened.

 

Edit: PS - I'm done on this topic.

Edited September 5, 2009 by maineflyer

[maineflyer 0]

Would anyone be averse to me spending the time when I come back later in thinning this thread out a bit ?

 

I think the UEFA/RFC/TBB is a great topic but it seems to have taken over this thread which dilutes the effect of the thread topic.

 

That OK folks ?

 

I think everyone is able to see the wood from the trees without too much problem. Since the original topic is basically about establishing an interaction with the club and since the foregoing TBB exchanges are essentially about how the club has handled it's dialogue with supporters' groups, I'd say the whole debate above is entirely relevant. N'est ce pas?

[Frankie 8,665]

Frankie,

 

Of course I read the links and I very much appreciate what is suggested. However, I'd like to examine this beyond the level of suggestion and at no time do UEFA state in any of THEIR directives that the Billy Boys song is to be banned as a result of a UEFA decision. Not once, even though they have had at least two opportunities to do so. Why not? Why only skirt around the subject unless they wanted to leave the door open for someone else to take that decision?

 

It is plain that the only decision to ban this specific song came from the club and, while the club may very well have chosen to conclude this was UEFA's wish, this does NOT justify the club claiming via its surrogates that UEFA have banned the song.

 

It is equally clear that the club wished to attribute the banning to UEFA in order to distance itself from the decision and to lend a definitive credibility that the club itself could not provide.

 

Now I don't particularly have a problem if that is the outcome the club wished to achieve and I'm not going to war to re-instate the song, but I'm not going to put two and two together to come up with five. All I've ever argued is that UEFA did not ban this song. No evidence has ever been produced that shows they did and, if it existed, it would surely have been easier for the club to parade it for all to see. If the club wanted to ban the Billy Boys then the club should not have hidden behind the apron of UEFA to do so. In fact, in contrast to the club's charade, UEFA even indicated that this was something that lay beyond it's particular gift.

 

In the final analysis, this is about honesty and the unwillingness of those running the club to deal with the ordinary supporter in and open and frank manner. Those who attended the meeting may well have been used to convey the club's subterfuge and in turn either passed on what they believed to be an honest expression from UEFA, or they knowingly colluded with the club. I don't know which and I hope it was the former. What disappoints greatly is that in two years of asking this question, those who returned from that meeting never chose to seek full corroboration or to question the absence of it.

 

The facts as I can see them are that....

 

1. The Billy Boys song was banned by the club and not by UEFA.

2. The club deliberately asked fans to believe that they were acting at the specific and direct instructions of UEFA.

3. Almost certainly, elements of some supporters organisations colluded with the club in this respect, either knowingly or by neglect.

4. This was an act of gross dishonesty that has never been properly judged.

 

Sorry I know you've said you've posted your last word on this but I was all away at a wedding all day/night yesterday so didn't get a chance to respond...

 

Can I ask you what you think UEFA fined us for then if it wasn't for singing a song they now judge sectarian and thus unacceptable? You said the chant hadn't been specifically mentioned but it was twice - even if an outright ban wasn't confirmed by them after the fact.

 

What do you think they would do if we continued to sing that song? Because, even if they wanted to, they wouldn't be allowed to ignore it.

 

It's like saying that Inter Milan were fined for monkey chants but the monkey chants aren't banned because they weren't specifically mentioned on their website when the fine was announced for racism.

 

Of course the monkey chants are banned and of course they'll act again if the club's fans use them. That isn't suggestion just common sense.

 

IMO, the same applies to the Billy Boys - even if I appreciate that the situation could have been handled by the club and the supporters groups who met with them to discuss the fall-out from the UEFA punishment.

 

PS: I would like to see the song return (sans ****** obviously) but I think it is impossible to guarantee it would work in certain situations.

[Frankie 8,665]

The fact that no UEFA letter was produced by Rangers after the "ban", only talked about, speaks volumes IMO. Surely if any such letter was handed to Rangers, the club would have waved it about and said "Here you go, there's nothing we can do". It would have made Murray's plea to the fans a hell of a lot easier for a start.

 

They did produce a letter I believe - but I don't think copies were made available to the groups present due to the club not wanting aspects of it to be made public for whatever reason.

 

Obviously they did quote from the alleged directive on the Assembly website though.

[Frankie 8,665]

Shroomz,

 

The one very clever aspect of this is that the club did not claim UEFA banned the song. They got a group of fans' representatives to do this for them. The club was extremely careful to act at arms length at all times but the effect was clear - to get the wider support to believe that UEFA had banned the song without the club actually having to make a direct claim that could not be supported under investigation.

.

 

No, the club did claim UEFA banned the song - this is clear in the link I provided entitled 'Joint supporter/club Statement' (which also appeared on the old Rangers webste IIRC).

 

UEFA have issued the Club with certain directives in order to combat sectarianism more efficiently.

 

- Firstly the Club has been ââ?¬Ë?ordered to announce measurable targets in order to reduce sectarian behaviour amongst its supportersââ?¬â?¢.

 

- Secondly ââ?¬Ë?to control their anti-sectarian activities by producing comprehensive statistics that are communicated to the publicââ?¬â?¢.

 

- Finally ââ?¬Ë?to make a public address announcement at every official fixture, be it international or domestic, stating that any sectarian chanting and any form of ââ?¬Ë?Billy Boysââ?¬â?¢ songs is strictly prohibited.ââ?¬â?¢

 

Again, I don't know if the club wrote these 'directives' themselves but I can't imagine UEFA would be overly happy if they were being falsely implicated in the banning of a song.

 

I believe various people have brought this to their attention to try and achieve clarity but it seems they're not overly interested in doing this to independent supporters. I'd have thought their disciplinary actions would be a matter of public record for fans directly affected by such directives but I myself have been unable to find out more.

 

I don't think this adds to any conspiracy theory though - it just proves they would rather conveniently forget the while issue which, to be fair, made them look rather daft as well.

 

I've actually just thought of another route here though. I may give that a go next week....

[maineflyer 0]

No, the club did claim UEFA banned the song

Yes - I didn't explain myself properly. I really meant to make the point that while the club made the claim about UEFA, it wasn't willing to do so in public - but chose instead to communicate at arms length through surrogate supporters groups, allowing them to draw the "right" conclusions and pass these on.

 

 

- this is clear in the link I provided entitled 'Joint supporter/club Statement' (which also appeared on the old Rangers webste IIRC).

Which link is that - which post number? There is nothing in the quoted text in your last post to indicate that anyone other than the club made the link to TBB. (which I realise is the point you are making here)

 

 

Again, I don't know if the club wrote these 'directives' themselves but I can't imagine UEFA would be overly happy if they were being falsely implicated in the banning of a song.

This isn't complicated. Either UEFA wrote the directive and specifically quoted TBB song, or they didn't. If they didn't (and there is no evidence that they did) then the club must have done so itself. If the club made the specific link to TBB then why have they spent the last two years trying to have everyone believe that UEFA did it? I'm not really interested in whether certain assumptions are or were justified or whether the club had any option but to ban the song. I'm only dealing here with the unwillingness of the club to communicate openly and honestly with the support - and their all to easy slippage into spin and half-truth.

 

 

 

I believe various people have brought this to their attention to try and achieve clarity but it seems they're not overly interested in doing this to independent supporters.

And why not? What reason could there possibly be for not wanting to make things clear to the ordinary supporter? (can you see my eyes roll)

 

I don't think this adds to any conspiracy theory though - it just proves they would rather conveniently forget the while issue which, to be fair, made them look rather daft as well.

TBH, I'm not particularly into conspiracy theories. Only in opening eyes to the lack of respect the club has consistently shown towards its own supporters.

[Frankie 8,665]

Yes - I didn't explain myself properly. I really meant to make the point that while the club made the claim about UEFA, it wasn't willing to do so in public - but chose instead to communicate at arms length through surrogate supporters groups, allowing them to draw the "right" conclusions and pass these on.

 

The club have made the point about the UEFA ban in public. IIRC, the Joint Club/Supporter Statement I quoted from the official RFC fans group Assembly website was also available on the old official club website at the time.

 

The former chairman himself also mentioned the directive in the 2006/07 Wee Blue Book (page 4).

 

http://www.freewebs.com/ncrangersclub/pdf/wee%20blue%20book.pdf

 

The papers at the time also widely quoted from that statement (one example follows):

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17207815&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=uefa-ban-billy-boys-name_page.html

 

Furthermore, by carrying out the third directive before every Rangers game at Ibrox, that also shows the club giving official credence to the UEFA actions.

 

Again, can I ask you what you think UEFA fined us for if it wasn't for singing a song they now judge sectarian and thus unacceptable?

 

Which link is that - which post number? There is nothing in the quoted text in your last post to indicate that anyone other than the club made the link to TBB. (which I realise is the point you are making here)

 

 

http://www.rangersassembly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=41

 

The statement clearly says UEFA have banned the Billy Boys via the directive which originated from the official UEFA website saying that was the song we were under investigation about.

 

 

This isn't complicated. Either UEFA wrote the directive and specifically quoted TBB song, or they didn't. If they didn't (and there is no evidence that they did) then the club must have done so itself. If the club made the specific link to TBB then why have they spent the last two years trying to have everyone believe that UEFA did it? I'm not really interested in whether certain assumptions are or were justified or whether the club had any option but to ban the song. I'm only dealing here with the unwillingness of the club to communicate openly and honestly with the support - and their all to easy slippage into spin and half-truth.

 

But there is evidence that they did. Rangers, the media and UEFA themselves have all mention that specific song in the time-line surrounding the fine placed upon us. As such, I believe UEFA did write the directive because of the available evidence even it may not be as clear as it should be.

 

 

And why not? What reason could there possibly be for not wanting to make things clear to the ordinary supporter? (can you see my eyes roll)

 

Because, as I said, they're not overly interested in going back a 3 year old subject that made them look stupid.

 

TBH, I'm not particularly into conspiracy theories. Only in opening eyes to the lack of respect the club has consistently shown towards its own supporters.

 

I think the whole subject was badly handled by the club. And it is one of the main reasons why our support is so estranged from the club and one of the main reasons why our support is so disjointed in regard to each other. I accept that and don't blame anyone for still being frustrated now. I am as well.

 

However, I don't believe the club fraudulently falsified UEFA directives just because UEFA may not have specifically mentioned the song in their conclusive website judgement - after mentioning it clearly on the way to that judgement.

Edited September 6, 2009 by Frankie

[maineflyer 0]

The club have made the point about the UEFA ban in public. IIRC, the Joint Club/Supporter Statement I quoted from the official RFC fans group Assembly website was also available on the old official club website at the time.

 

The former chairman himself also mentioned the directive in the 2006/07 Wee Blue Book (page 4).

 

http://www.freewebs.com/ncrangersclub/pdf/wee%20blue%20book.pdf

 

The papers at the time also widely quoted from that statement (one example follows):

 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/tm_objectid=17207815&method=full&siteid=66633&headline=uefa-ban-billy-boys-name_page.html

 

Furthermore, by carrying out the third directive before every Rangers game at Ibrox, that also shows the club giving official credence to the UEFA actions.

 

Again, can I ask you what you think UEFA fined us for if it wasn't for singing a song they now judge sectarian and thus unacceptable?

 

 

 

 

http://www.rangersassembly.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=18&Itemid=41

 

The statement clearly says UEFA have banned the Billy Boys via the directive which originated from the official UEFA website saying that was the song we were under investigation about.

 

 

 

 

But there is evidence that they did. Rangers, the media and UEFA themselves have all mention that specific song in the time-line surrounding the fine placed upon us. As such, I believe UEFA did write the directive because of the available evidence even it may not be as clear as it should be.

 

 

 

 

Because, as I said, they're not overly interested in going back a 3 year old subject that made them look stupid.

 

 

 

I think the whole subject was badly handled by the club. And it is one of the main reasons why our support is so estranged from the club and one of the main reasons why our support is so disjointed in regard to each other. I accept that and don't blame anyone for still being frustrated now. I am as well.

 

However, I don't believe the club fraudulently falsified UEFA directives just because UEFA may not have specifically mentioned the song in their conclusive website judgement - after mentioning it clearly on the way to that judgement.

 

This just gets stranger and stranger. Perhaps it's me.

 

You say the chairman quoted the UEFA directive in the Wee Blue Book, which is correct. But not once does it quote any UEFA directive that mentions TBB. Nor does the Wee Blue Book make even one mention of TBB.

 

You mention a joint club/supporter statement, which is actually an Assembly statement that alludes to the club's position on this matter - it is not a club statement and as such only further reinforces my central point.

 

You then quote from the Daily Record which, if you'll forgive me, I wouldn't wipe my arse with and don't think adds anything credible to the debate.

 

The club making tannoy announcements about TBB certainly doesn't show that UEFA banned the song. All it shows is the club enacting its own ban.

 

UEFA fined the club for the reasons given in the UEFA statements, none of which ever said that any fine was imposed due to TBB having been sung. That is a fact and is there for anyone to read and confirm.

 

You again mention that the Assembly statement says UEFA banned TBB. Which is what I have said all along - that the supporter groups reported the club's statement to them that UEFA had banned TBB - the Assembly could not and did not report any statement from UEFA that TBB was banned. Just because the Assembly reported that UEFA had banned TBB, I'm afraid that isn't the same as UEFA actually banning the song. The Assembly simply did the club's bidding and reported what the club had told them. The only specific connection between the UEFA sanctions and the banning of TBB came from the Assembly and sundry other supporter groups, who took their information from the club alone.

 

You say that Rangers, the media and UEFA all mentioned TBB in their various statements, which is true. You then say that you only "believe" that UEFA banned the song - and the reason you only believe this is that there isn't one shred of evidence you can hold up to show that they did. You know it and I know it, that the connection is circumstantial and holds up only because it suited the club's agenda to make that connection - and too many supporters have accepted the club's spin.

 

You may not believe the club fraudulently fasified UEFA directives (your words). I might disagree, although whether or not I would use such emotive language is another thing.

 

You may also choose to believe the outcome was inevitable in any case. At no time have I ever attempted to argue otherwise. As I've said many times, that's irrelevant to the point I'm making.

 

It's clear there is nothing new that is going to prove UEFA specifically banned TBB. Not from the Assembly, not from the club and certainly not from UEFA. I've said my piece on this and it's up to everyone to do their own research and judge the facts for themselves. My own position is unchanged.

[Big Spliff 0]

I can't believe this is still going! I thought we all agreed that there was a gap in verifiable information in the transition from UEFA's first ruling which specifically mentioned TBB, to the appeal, which didn't? Nobody disputes that from what I can see.

 

Without seeing the actual written communication from UEFA to RFC it's not possible to establish if RFC's subsequent version of it was word-for-word, who wrote it, or if it was translated/embellished or whatever.

 

I think frankie said he had a possible avenue so for those who are interested, let's see if that comes to anything.