Where are those anal accountants?

[craig 5,199]

That's exactly the information that the fans want though. As it stands, the fans are unclear on such things, which is just wrong. The fans deserve to know the details. It's called transparency.

 

You think your colleagues should know what YOU get paid ?

 

I thnk highlighting the salary packages on a named basis would be a terrible course of action to take.

 

You force publicly listed football clubs into that and all other publicly traded businesses would have to as well.

 

Football players are emplyees the same as we are. I can tell you for sure that I do NOT want others knowing what I get paid and nobody should, in my opinion.

 

It would add transparency but the reality is that the level of disclosure in financial statements is transparent enough for the interested stakeholders to make decisions on whether to invest, loan or otherwise.

[craig 5,199]

That's exactly the information that the fans want though. As it stands, the fans are unclear on such things, which is just wrong. The fans deserve to know the details. It's called transparency.

 

Another thing. The fans, unless shareholders, are nothing more than paying customers (rightly or wrongly that is how they are technically viewed from the perspective of their relationship with the club).

 

And even the shareholder fans shouldnt necessarily have the right to know what the players get paid. What benefit does it give them in knowing ? What decision would they make if they knew Mendes got 25k a week ?

[Zappa 0]

You make some good points Craig & you're right in a certain sense. The problem I have with this is that it's all based on a big fat lie. Money isn't the most important thing in anyone's life, despite what they might have been led to believe. Anyone who believes money is the most important thing in their life is sadly deluded. Money isn't the most important thing in a footballers career, despite the fact that many footballers seem to think it is. I think we can all agree that we're delighted when a gifted player comes to Ibrox that isn't interested in moving elsewhere for higher wages, but such people are few & far between. The reality of the situation is that we've all been suckered into believing that money is the key to our lives, when in actual fact money is nothing.

[pete 2,499]

You make some good points Craig & you're right in a certain sense. The problem I have with this is that it's all based on a big fat lie. Money isn't the most important thing in anyone's life, despite what they might have been led to believe. Anyone who believes money is the most important thing in their life is sadly deluded. Money isn't the most important thing in a footballers career, despite the fact that many footballers seem to think it is. I think we can all agree that we're delighted when a gifted player comes to Ibrox that isn't interested in moving elsewhere for higher wages, but such people are few & far between. The reality of the situation is that we've all been suckered into believing that money is the key to our lives, when in actual fact money is nothing.

 

Not totally true we have all become materialistic. Moral ethics have been dropped for the latest gadgets. We are all playing our part. are we being suckered? I think not we are happy to play the role.

[calscot 0]

What decision would they make if they knew Mendes got 25k a week ?

 

I don't quite get this. If he's getting paid this then it's true whether people know it or not. What you're saying is that it is desirable to manipulate people's actions by withholding information from them, and that it is ok for people to make their descisions based on false information or assumptions.

 

I don't really get the custom of hiding your salary anyway. If you're worth it, what's the problem?

[Bluedell 5,612]

Just being a shareholder doesn't entitle you to receiving commercially sensitive information, including people's salaries.

[craig 5,199]

I don't quite get this. If he's getting paid this then it's true whether people know it or not. What you're saying is that it is desirable to manipulate people's actions by withholding information from them, and that it is ok for people to make their descisions based on false information or assumptions.

 

I don't really get the custom of hiding your salary anyway. If you're worth it, what's the problem?

 

You either misunderstand my point or choose to ignore it.

 

My point is this : if the fans knew what salary ANY player was on what difference would it make to said fans ? What decision could they make based on that ? None, because they cant influence it.

 

Just what actions are being manipulated ? Explain because I simply don't understand your point here. Are you saying that if the fans knew Mendes was on 25k a week then they would take a certain course of action ? I dont know what action they really could take other than something like purchasing (or not) his name on their shirt, buying a ticket to games, buying an ST etc.

 

I just dont see what other actions that can be manipulated by not telling everyone what salaries players are on.

 

By the way, in no way is it a manipulation. The simple fact of the matter is that Rangers, and all other businesses, are complying with Companies house rules.

 

What people make decisions on players salaries whereby the salaries are detailed on name-specific basis ?

 

False information ? Not so. No information perhaps but certainly not false information. If the club do not tell anyone anything about players compensation how can that be false information where NO information is provided ?

 

Assumptions ? Sure because they have nothing to go on. But, again, just what decisions will these people be making ?

 

Any appropriate interested parties (shareholders, vendors/creditors, banks, authorities etc) get the information they need which is the salaries in total. The break-out of salaries into individuals wouldnt affect that decision-making process.

 

As for your "if you are worth it what is the problem" statement.... what someone gets paid is entirely a matter between employer and employee. No-one else has any right to that information asides from HMRC. So because someone thinks they are worth their salary they should be announcing it to the world ? I can't see why anyone should feel obliged.

 

I also could see problems should salaries become specified in financial statements or public documentation because it could easily lead to in-house demotivation and/or animosity between individuals (I say that as someone who managed people and thsoe people spoke openly about each other's salaries and inevitable you get a jealousy factor). Doesn't help the company one little bit.

[Zappa 0]

I also could see problems should salaries become specified in financial statements or public documentation because it could easily lead to in-house demotivation and/or animosity between individuals (I say that as someone who managed people and thsoe people spoke openly about each other's salaries and inevitable you get a jealousy factor). Doesn't help the company one little bit.

I partially agree with what you're saying about the jealousy factor in this paragraph Craig, but you're completely missing out the fact that people within companies always have a fairly good idea of what one another earn anyway & that companies whose employees don't talk openly about their salary still have this problem in their ranks. This is something that is absolute fact.

 

Why shouldn't the fans know what the players earn? It's not good enough imo to answer that question by simply saying 'why should they?' or 'they don't need to know'. Most of the players within a squad at a football club will have a reasonably good idea of what one another earn anyway & there will always be a jealousy factor between certain players, but that's life. Does the player with the fittest wife not let her meet his teammates in case they get jealous or try to cut his lunch?

 

What difference does it really make to the players or the club if the fans know exactly how much the players earn? Why shouldn't the fans who consistently give the club their hard earned cash be able to discuss whether they think certain players are earning their massive wages? The fans already know *roughly* what players are earning, so what's the difference in them being given the specific salary information that they're genuinely interested in knowing?

 

Moreover, if the club has been performing poorly financially perhaps it's actually in everyone's best interest if everything is made transparent. Oh no, wait a minute, it just won't do for the fans to be able to investigate the structure of employee salaries at the club because then we'd be able to see with our own eyes specifically why the club is essentially non-profit making. We'd be able to see specifically which fat cats are getting rich out of being employed by Rangers Football Club, while the club is supposedly in financial difficulty. We'd be able to see specifically why the club can't afford to buy better players for challenging in Europe & why there's speculation about the club even being able to afford to renew the contracts of it's important players. It just wouldn't do for the fans to have access to the information they need to be able to get answers to their questions now would it? Why? Because of course the fans don't need to know do they? The club doesn't owe it to the fans to let them be able to see why we're in such a poor state financially, does it?

[craig 5,199]

I partially agree with what you're saying about the jealousy factor in this paragraph Craig, but you're completely missing out the fact that people within companies always have a fairly good idea of what one another earn anyway & that companies whose employees don't talk openly about their salary still have this problem in their ranks. This is something that is absolute fact.

 

Fair point, but those employees whilst having a "fair idea" are still completely guessing. If the company provided a "laundry list" of what everyone gets paid you can be guaranteed it would exacerbate the problem and cause even more unrest. That is also absolute fact.

 

Why shouldn't the fans know what the players earn? It's not good enough imo to answer that question by simply saying 'why should they?' or 'they don't need to know'. Most of the players within a squad at a football club will have a reasonably good idea of what one another earn anyway & there will always be a jealousy factor between certain players, but that's life. Does the player with the fittest wife not let her meet his teammates in case they get jealous or try to cut his lunch?

 

Why is it not good enough to say "why should they" ? Besides, I havent said "why should they?" - I have actually given my reasons why they shouldnt. To reiterate...... The players are employees of the company and the contract is with the company. A private agreement between two parties. Do you honestly think that if you worked at Tesco and one of the customers came in and said "hey, how much do you earn" that you should tell them how much you earn ? I assure you, if you say yes, then we may as well stop the debate there because I will, no doubt, be shaking my head in disbelief.

 

The fans have absolutely NO RIGHT to know what the players get paid. Now, you have said they do but, as far as I can see (unless I have missed it) you havent given your reasons why they should. I, on the other hand, have told you it is a private matter and no-one has a right to know what anyone else makes. The club also meet all the requirements for true interested parties as well as Companies House regulations.

 

What difference does it really make to the players or the club if the fans know exactly how much the players earn? Why shouldn't the fans who consistently give the club their hard earned cash be able to discuss whether they think certain players are earning their massive wages? The fans already know *roughly* what players are earning, so what's the difference in them being given the specific salary information that they're genuinely interested in knowing?

 

Read my previous response in this same message. Regardless of whether it makes a difference or not the fans have ZERO right to know how much the players get paid. Those same fans give their hard earned cash to Tesco for their groceries or Scottish Gas for their gas but that doesnt give them the right to know how much each individual gets paid by those companies either.

 

Moreover, if the club has been performing poorly financially perhaps it's actually in everyone's best interest if everything is made transparent. Oh no, wait a minute, it just won't do for the fans to be able to investigate the structure of employee salaries at the club because then we'd be able to see with our own eyes specifically why the club is essentially non-profit making. We'd be able to see specifically which fat cats are getting rich out of being employed by Rangers Football Club, while the club is supposedly in financial difficulty. We'd be able to see specifically why the club can't afford to buy better players for challenging in Europe & why there's speculation about the club even being able to afford to renew the contracts of it's important players. ?

 

Whether we like this or not the financial handling of the club is dealt with by club employees, not the fans. The fans are customers (hate using the term but technically they are). The fans have no right to investigate, why should they ? Do you think the fans should have a right to inspect the books of the company, because that is essentially what you are suggesting ? And if so, for what purpose ?

 

It just wouldn't do for the fans to have access to the information they need to be able to get answers to their questions now would it? Why? Because of course the fans don't need to know do they? The club doesn't owe it to the fans to let them be able to see why we're in such a poor state financially, does it?

 

But see, they DO know why we are in such a poor state financially. If the wages are why we are in such a poor state then that is all we need to know. We don't NEED to know who specifically gets what. Even if we knew, I will say it again, just what action can WE take to resolve that ? None. So why do we need to know any more than the collective amount of wages ?

 

The reasons we are in such a poor state financially is right there for us all to see and reading the historical financial statements will also give insight into how that has happened over the recent few years.

 

Interested users in financial statement do not need to know who specifically gets what, they just need to know the collective cost.

 

If interested users really needed to know who gets what then I, and BD, could assure you that Companies House, the FSA and the accounting standard setters (International Accounting Standards Board, IASB) would have brought in such requirements.

[craig 5,199]

PS - great debate.