How long do we wait?

[CammyF 7,886]

We've picked up 4 more than them since January. Same again between now and the end of the season.

 

I'm not saying we're favourites, but like Cal I wish everyone wouldn't give up the fight. Even if you think the players have. Is that how we measure our support now? I don't think the players are trying so why should I? It's one of the few occassions where I admire the fans of the diddy teams. They support their team through the bad and the good.

 

But I haven't given up the ghost - I'll be at all our remaining games (health permitting) giving 110% support spending money that I don't have HOPING against all hope, praying to all the gods, not just mine, that we win the league.

 

As others have said, hope is all I have, no conviction that we'll win the league and no confidence in our players and management. I am lot of things varying from loyal, stupid, dedicated, passionate, vocal, outspoken, supportive. Doesn't make me a surrender monkey nort does it make me gutless.

 

I'll be at Ibrox on Saturday as part of The Blue Order doing all in my power to get behind our team. I'll be singing from the 1st minute to the last minute no matter what the score or level of performance. I leave my moaning et al to forums and fanzines!

 

Cammy F

[Super_Ally 0]

Sums it up perfectly.

 

There's never any guarantees in football.

 

Helicopter Sunday.

99 Champions League Final.

Liverpools win over AC Milan in the same comp, winning from 3-0 down.

Did they have a hope?

 

And us winnning this league title wouldn't even merit mention as a comeback in that company.

[Super_Ally 0]

But I haven't given up the ghost - I'll be at all our remaining games (health permitting) giving 110% support spending money that I don't have HOPING against all hope, praying to all the gods, not just mine, that we win the league.

 

As others have said, hope is all I have, no conviction that we'll win the league and no confidence in our players and management. I am lot of things varying from loyal, stupid, dedicated, passionate, vocal, outspoken, supportive. Doesn't make me a surrender monkey nort does it make me gutless.

 

I'll be at Ibrox on Saturday as part of The Blue Order doing all in my power to get behind our team. I'll be singing from the 1st minute to the last minute no matter what the score or level of performance. I leave my moaning et al to forums and fanzines!

 

Cammy F

 

And for that you have to be respected. Shame you'll be in the minority at Ibrox come the Hearts game.

[Frankie 8,529]

There's never any guarantees in football.

 

Helicopter Sunday.

99 Champions League Final.

Liverpools win over AC Milan in the same comp, winning from 3-0 down.

Did they have a hope?

 

And us winnning this league title wouldn't even merit mention as a comeback in that company.

 

Of course there are no guarantees in football.

 

However, we can base our expectations on confidence in our the kind of virtues successful teams have. Virtues sadly lacking which means any confidence is minimal.

 

To be clear I still think we can win the title and certainly haven't surrendered it. However, I think it is most unlikely based upon the evidence befoe me.

[johnnyk 158]

But we don't know that yet, do we? The point is that if they have the same attitude as some fans, then those fans will be 100% right. The trouble is that the fans don't seem to be helping the club, we're now a man short. If we do win, will it be DESPITE the fans?

 

 

 

have you been watching this season? we're more than a man short most of the time IMO, some of these players should be ashamed, as should the manager for some of his tactics/team selections in key games, it's certainly not the fans fault IMO. Fans will always respond to at least a team of players giving their all for the club, I would not say many are doing that would you? Until this happens the fans have every right to be on their backs expecting more from them.........If we do win, it will be FOR the fans will it not

[calscot 0]

Cal, but you aren't taking into account how we approached the cup final and how we failed to play to OUR strengths and expose THEIR weaknesses. That isn't the fans fault, no matter how you spin it.

 

I'm not sure what our strengths are but they do seem to stem from defence and most of the game we defended well. It was Boyd losing the man he was marking that led to the first and decisive goal.

 

Our other strengths SHOULD be our central midfield but neither stamped any authority on the game, and how much that is down to the manager is difficult to gauge.

 

To be honest, I thought although we were poor in the first half, we were noticeably the better team in the second and could easily have won it then.

 

However, we didn't turn up for extra time which was very disappointing.

 

In the end, Celtic are, not surprisingly at a similar standard to us and were trying just as hard to win it. Even looking at the game, it was an even contest which needed a bit of luck or a bit of good play or a mistake to win it. Unfortunately, that rub of the green went to Celtic.

 

I'm not going to get too analytical or critical about narrowly losing to Celtic in a very even cup final unless it happens every time. I can't see how we have a divine right to win and if Walter's team wasn't great, they were well in it for most of the game.

 

If we win the more prestigious Scottish Cup, will it really matter? What matters more is the league.

 

We are only in contention in the SPL and Scottish Cup as there is only really two teams who can win all three domestic trophies.

 

Rangers and Celtc dominate the Scottish Game and will in the vast majority of cases win the trophies. It would take something exceptional for Rangers and Celtc not to win these trophies, so when they come head to head as they did on Sunday, it is a case of being positive and trusting and backing your players to better the opposition - Walter Smith didn't do that, and he hasn't done that in his last three encounters with Celtc.

 

Not quite true as other teams win the cup and it wasn't long ago we were third in the league and heading that way for a second season. Usually one of the OF dominates when the other side are not up to scratch and the other team are usually not too far ahead of the rest. That is patently not happening this season and based on that fact, it looks like both the OF are reasonably competent with reasonably competent managers.

 

They may not be the best OF teams ever, but I've put a reasonable case about that in another thread. We're playing with effectively top Championship/bottom Premiership players and so the standard cannot genuinely be compared to teams full of top tier players.

 

You still seem to come from an assumption that we should be systematically beating Celtic. A more realistic attitude would be to expect to beat them at least as much as we lose to them.

 

I really can't see how we should be dominating them - you may think they are rubbish (although that can only be the case if the rest of the SPL have lowered their standards by the same amount), but we are fishing for players in the same small backwater, so why should we be much better?

 

Strachan is a respected manager, so is Smith (although some here would say the opposite) so where do we have the edge?

 

If anything Celtic have the edge, more income, less debt and further on in their development. They also seem to have more support from their fans. People may say they pay their money and can do what they like, but if Celtic have a 12th man and we don't then they have an advantage.

 

The reason so many fans are negative is due to the product on the pitch. We are woeful and haven't showed any true form in the SPL this season - the only games that stand-out as being what I would call acceptable are Celtc away 2-4, Hibernian away 0-3, ICT home (first half) 5-0, Hamilton twice and home (2nd half after they were reduced to 10 men) 7-1 & 5-1. That's about it.

 

That's what's going to happen with a lesser level of player. Walter was never a great tactician, but his strength was getting a team together that got results. He's still doing that but with lesser players he's getting lesser results. But like I keep repeating, there is not a team or manager in Scotland that is showing him up. We're a smidgen behind Celtic and well ahead of the rest of the field. We've had many years where that's not been the case.

 

So the negativity isn't the fans fault, and how can you say playing in front of 50,000 passionate supporters every week is like being a man down? Our home form has been pretty decent this season, it's on our travels that we've struggled - kn=inda blows your latest fans fault theory out the window.

Cammy F

 

I'm not saying it's the fans fault, I'm just saying they could help more and the 12th man theory is pretty old. What about the positivity that stemmed from Marvin Andrews? Did that help in us winning the league? If so, would the opposite not hinder us?

[CammyF 7,886]

Celtc have more support from their fans? have you read any Celtc websites? Have you heard them complaining about the standard of football being played by Celtc? Have you watched Celtc games on TV (home and away) and viewed the vast empty seats? At home, their fans are as vocal as ours, that's to say, not very. Away from home, they are more vocal, but that has implications on what you can and can't sing. They haver free reign to sing songs celebrating terrorist whilst we can't mutter a childrens song in fear of having a points deduction.

 

Being in debt doesn't mean that we can't be better than them, in fact, it be argued that we should be better than them as we are outspending them in the transfer market. If players are coached properly and coached to play the game correctly and have a splattering of decent players, they should be playing to a better standard than we are playing to.

 

We have been 2nd to Celtc for seven out of the last nine seasons in the SPL. We haven't faced them in a final for 6 years (excluding Sunday) but they have won as many trophies as we have over the last decade and completely battered us in the SPL over the same period of time. Only Alex McLeish was capable of winning the title against them (twice).

 

There are so many basic things wrong with our club, that is the furstrating and most gauling thing about this mess. many of the problems are basic and easy to fix but we have a Chairman who has washed his hands of us and doesn't care about Rangers. It could be argued that he has 'surrendered'.

 

Cammy F

[calscot 0]

It's great that Eck won the league but in what way was he much better than last season? He won on goal difference and on the last day due to a couple of last minute goals against Celtic. Last season we lost on the last day but who can deny the fixture congestion was as factor?

 

If we had played Celtic in the New Year we'd have probably won or at least drawn. With a few less postponements we'd have picked up a few more points. Eck didn't have that to contend with.

 

This season we're only 3 points behind, how many times was Eck in that kind of position at this time of year? Twice he was double points behind.

 

Eck had a bit of good luck which swayed things in his league winning years, when it's that close you need it. Walter had some bad luck that swayed it. There is little difference and the fact is they were both close to Celtic and competed. The actual difference is that Walter has done this two years in a row.

 

You can't judge Walter as worse than Eck over one season where we would have won without the cheating and fixture pileup. You can't even slightly compare until the SPL destination is decided and really you need to give Walter 4 full seasons.

 

If Eck was 3 points behind and well ahead of the rest in his final season, he wouldn't have been sacked, but seemingly Walter should be.

 

What most people don't even get a wee bit is that I'm not a great fan of Walter, I just can't believe the weird comparisons and double standards that are used to judge him.

 

Taken in isolation, his current record is way passable and actually pretty good.

 

If you don't like him for his football then don't start praising Eck, I much prefer it now than I did to Eck's last 3 seasons.

 

It's not great but it's not as dire.

 

I really can't see how anyone can talk about getting rid of Walter until we see where the championship goes.

[CammyF 7,886]

If's, but's and maybe's - like the old saying goes, if your auntie had baws, she'd be your uncle.

 

The difference was with Eck's team, as I've stated previously, there were players there that you trusted and players that you believed could win you the league.

 

In the first to 50 season where we won on goal difference, we gained significant points tally and scored in the region of 100 goals (that is without checking any of the records).

 

Those two teams had players playing in the correct positions, players that had ability, skill and agility and they were up against the 2nd most successful Celtc manager / team ever.

 

Cammy F

Edited March 18, 2009 by CammyF

[calscot 0]

If's, but's and maybe's - like the old saying goes, if your auntie had baws, she'd be your uncle.

 

I'm sorry but I'd say that's one of the most badly used sayings ever. So you're saying your aunt almost has balls? That apart from a bit of bad luck and bad administration last year, she'd have balls? Is your aunt a post-op transsexual, ladyboy or hermaphrodite or something? The analogy doesn't work well at all in this instance.

 

The point is that qualitatively Walter's season last year was as good as Eck's, but unlike Eck he didn't have a level playing field and so a marginal difference made the outcome different. Surely you can understand that?

 

You must be one of the few Rangers fans that doesn't feel hard done by last season and it shows that you are as bad as the SPL in your judgements as well as using double standards.

 

So Walter's rubbish because he didn't win the title no matter what the circumstances, but Eck's great because of the circumstances in which he won the league? What happened to what's good for the goose is good for the gander?

 

When you win or lose the title by 3pts, it's obvious that a bit of luck or circumstance can have made the difference.

 

The difference was with Eck's team, as I've stated previously, there were players there that you trusted and players that you believed could win you the league.

 

In the first to 50 season where we won on goal difference, we gained significant points tally and scored in the region of 100 goals (that is without checking any of the records).

 

Those two teams had players playing in the correct positions, players that had ability, skill and agility and they were up against the 2nd most successful Celtc manager / team ever.

 

Cammy F

 

That's a terrible argument given what I've previously said about the pool of players we now have to choose from. I'm sure if Walter cold inherit top Dutch players from Barcelona and sign a top young Spanish players for 6M etc, he would have a much better team on the pitch. Do you not think we would be in a much better position if we had that level of player?

 

Anyway, why not compare Eck's 2 seasons where he didn't win the league? That's what he was sacked for, for being way behind with no hope. How you can think that is better than the last two seasons, I really don't understand.

 

I don't want to put Eck down, but to pretend he was a manager you could rely on to challenge for the league, is just factually wrong.

 

I didn't see much skill and agility when we were 17 and 18 points behind and I'd still prefer what we have now and still be in with a shout of the title instead of fighting for second place and losing. If it was like that now then I'd be one of the loudest voices calling for Walter's head. But as you say, if my aunt blah, blah, blah.

 

Look, Eck's last season had us finishing with 73 points and 67 goals, Walter's last season was 86 points and 84 goals. So just where is your argument going?

Edited March 19, 2009 by calscot