DMAA

So many positives to take from that game. 

Have to say say I was glad to hear Kent and Candeias were unavailable because I was desperate for Middleton and Grezda to get a chance and they showed they have real end product in their game. When you only have one striker it’s vitally important to have goals in your midfield and those two have a very good goal scoring record, albeit it not yet at this level.

Arfield deserves a mention too. We really missed him when he was out. He finishes like Van Nistelrooy and tackles like Roy Keane. Really hope we see some rotation on the wings going forward, we have a strong squad. 

Certainly too early to say he could play centre forward imo. If he did it would probably have to be alongside a target man.  But the early signs have definitely been that he’s a reliable finisher. 

4 minutes ago, craig said:

the OP's assertion was that Gerrard should be embarrassed for saying Katic is better at defending set pieces

Gerrard's statement was a statement of fact too. I saw statistics the other day showing the one area Katic way outperforms Worrall is in the air. Worrall's stats were better in most other areas. This is the impression I had too, I thought Katic was a collossus at the back vs UFA at Ibrox.

17 minutes ago, buster. said:

Not necessarily.

They might lose more goals to better quality but no reason not to defend well.

Well it's like a stress test. The only way to test the strength of a thing is to gradually increase the stress tests. In other words, there is no way to know how strong the defence is and how well drilled it is until is fails against higher quality opposition.

I think our defence looked strong and well coached initially and was found out as the opposition got stronger. However you could take encouragement from the fact that - except the Motherwell experiment - we've only conceded more than once this season away to Villarreal and Spartak. And in both games our set up was attacking and we also scored goals freely.

2 minutes ago, buster. said:

If you think back to when we looked our most secure, we had:

 

- Jack and Coulibaly both playing at a high level in front fof the defence

 

- we had a back 4 that picked itself and stayed that way.

In Europe, the level of opposition has gradually increased so you'd expect the defence to perform less well.

In the league there isn't a clear goals conceded trend. The only time we've conceded more than one was the second game of the season against Motherwell who are one of the weaker teams in the league.

1 hour ago, Rousseau said:

You seem unwilling to criticise Middleton

He's very readily criticised on here for poor defending and I did explain clearly why I didn't think he was at fault here.

I agree Coulibaly is more culpable. He was miles away from where he should have been as the anchor man.

3 minutes ago, Rousseau said:

Middleton should be quicker to the RCM

Agree with that. However if the centre midfielders had been tighter on by far Spartak's most dangerous player he wouldn't have been sucked in at all.

4 minutes ago, Rousseau said:

I still think Middleton leaves Flanagan way too exposed.   

 

I'm not saying Flanagan is blameless, but he's been given a really difficult situation to deal with and he's not quite quick enough to spot it; it is an exceptional ball too.

I think the previous point mitigates it for Middleton because he's given a decision to make whether to stay on a full back who hasn't made a run yet or close down Spartak's best player who is in acres of space and weighing up a pass.

I also still think the man has been fairly passed on to Flanagan who isn't marking anyone and is in the left back position. If he's been left with 2 men to mark the points stands.

8 minutes ago, Rousseau said:

It's a moot point anyway if Goldson clears it properly!

Definitely. I'm just defending Middleton because I think he gets a hard time on here in that the slightest perceived defensive lapse is picked up on, despite the fact Candeias is the only winger in history I've seen defend to those standards. Modern winger's are far more used to being treated as left or right forwards and not man markers in a traditional 4-4-2.

11 minutes ago, DMAA said:

I've re-watched it and I stand by Flanagan being more culpable. The full back had been passed on to Flanagan and it's clear he was aware of it, however despite the fact that the full back was running at full pace Flanagan remained flat footed and the inevitable through ball was played through and he had already lost 5 yards. Poor anticipation of the play as much as poor positioning.

 

Middleton could have man-marked the full back but tried to close down Popov who was in acres of space and had loads of time to pick the pass. Have to say surely a centre midfielder should have been on Popov and not allowed him to play that pass in the first place. If Popov had been marked Middleton wouldn't have ran in to close him down, and more crucially the pass would never have been played.

And by the way even if Middleton had chosen to man-mark rather than close down Popov I think he'd have passed him on to Flanagan because Flanagan's man had gone inside and Flanagan had in fact passed him on. He was in the left back position but hadn't quite got in line. The lack of anticipation was definitely more of an issue.

26 minutes ago, Rousseau said:

I don't think he was way out of line -- I would need to see it again, though.

 

Middleton has shown several times that he lacks that defensive side of his game. 

I've re-watched it and I stand by Flanagan being more culpable. The full back had been passed on to Flanagan and it's clear he was aware of it, however despite the fact that the full back was running at full pace Flanagan remained flat footed and the inevitable through ball was played through and he had already lost 5 yards. Poor anticipation of the play as much as poor positioning.

Middleton could have man-marked the full back but tried to close down Popov who was in acres of space and had loads of time to pick the pass. Have to say surely a centre midfielder should have been on Popov and not allowed him to play that pass in the first place. If Popov had been marked Middleton wouldn't have ran in to close him down, and more crucially the pass would never have been played.

Just now, Rousseau said:

Yes, or a central midfielder covers across -- which I did mention. 

 

Ostensibly, it's still Middleton's man, IMO. 

Perhaps so, I'll have to watch it again. My initial reaction watching it, and as a full back myself, was why are you so out of line with your defence and so central. Full back's 101 is don't leave a gaping hole on your side of the defence and pass men on if they leave your zone.

19 minutes ago, der Berliner said:

which is why I bemoaned Jack's absence

I don't think Coulibaly justified his inclusion over Jack. Jack gives us a defensive steel and positional discipline in that anchor role and is also our most reliable centre midfielder in possession.

1 hour ago, Rousseau said:

The defending was criminal at times, but outwith individual mistakes / poor decision-making (Goldson going with the outside of the foot) or pure flukes (deflection), I felt like it was more down to the wide midfielders, or even central midfielders that cost us defensively. 

 

Flanagan was exposed time and time again, because Middleton didn't track his man. It was the Full-back that was getting in behind; that's Middleton's job, not Flanagan, who's covering the winger.

 

For the 1st, Tavernier was caught inside, but there was an overload of 3 against 1. Where's Candeias or a central midfielder to cover?

 

For the third, again Tavernier is caught under the ball, but again it's the Full-back, so it's not strictly his man. 

 

4th was a pure fluke, starting from the ball squirming out from Arfield's (?) tackle in the build-up.

I haven't watched the goals conceded over, however you can't blame the attacking left winger for not tracking that full back. Flanagan was out of position and out of line with the back line. For me the full back should not get sucked in like that and leave a big gap for the opposition full back to exploit. We have defensive midfielders for a reason and if the opposition winger moves inside you (as a full back) tell the defensive midfielder he's in your zone now, I'm staying in my position so that the defence keeps it's shape.

I’m going to go against the grain on the central defence and say I don’t think a little bit of rotation is or should be a problem. We’ve got 3/4 good central defenders and with a heavy fixture schedule none of them should be frozen out. There are problems with the defensive coaching by the looks of things because we are leaking unnecessary goals. 

7 minutes ago, ian1964 said:

Aye, and we could have lost before tonights' match! we got a draw in Russia with 9 men and should have lost that, but we never!.

The league is far more important than EL, once we had qualified to the group stages!. Some fans are just waiting for us to lose it seems so they can let of some anger

Ian, absolutely agree there one or two well over the top comments and a couple

of unnecessarily negative ones but it’s not at all true that there were loads of “moany” comments through the game, the vast majority of the comments were fair. 

19 minutes ago, 917 said:

Before the game on BT Sports he told Emma Dodds that he picked Katic ahead of the usually dependable Worrall because Spartak were a threat at set pieces & he could defend them better. 4 goals conceded from crosses into the box suggests otherwise & there could have been more. Ejaria & Flanagan were mortifying yet again as well & you have to wonder if Juergen Klopp is picking the Rangers team now. As bad as Spartak were in the 1st half, we never really turned up in either half & have just blown a never to be repeated chance to qualify, against by far the worst team in the group!! There is a serious problem with this team holding on to leads. Basically get rid of the lot of them apart from McGregor & Morelos!!

?

5 minutes ago, der Berliner said:

Game of emotions and hard to judge. Could have ended 6-6 for all the narrow misses, saves and shots off the metal.

 

Bar some bad touch by Goldson (saved for today, one might say) and better man-marking by Tav, our defense was rather solid. Ejaria needs to be flogged if he ever tries dancing his way out of trouble around our own area again (just ahed of their equalizer). Even their last goal came off a deflection. So fortune was wily today.

 

One might cite Morelos off-side goal, which would probably have killed them.

 

One may point at a ref again - handing out valid yellows in the first half, but then did not following them up with 2 or 3 professional foul - yellows in the second. But giving Morelos the yellow for not even really complaing about the foul (that never was) which he "conceeded".

 

At the end of the day, all it shows that this team out there is very well able to rub shoulders with millionaires like Spartak (2 or 3 of them alone cost what we spent on our entire squad) or Villareal. That should be the predominant feeling, IMHO ... and what a step forward at that.

 

Middleton should get that left-side slot. Tremendous job today! 

Well said. Despite some really poor moments defensively, we had terrible luck not to go 4-2 up with a wrongly chopped off goal and then terrible luck with a mad deflection for their 4th. As you say Spartak should really have had some second yellows too. And I agree re Middleton, looking forward to seeing how he does with a few games. You always trusted him to score when he got his chance. 

It’s easy to forgot that their 4th goal was pure luck. On another night it would have deflected wide and how different the game could have been. 

1 minute ago, ian1964 said:

Some fans don't deserve a good team

Have a bit of respect for goodness sake

That was agonising. Right up until their 3rd goal we looked like scoring every time we had the ball but the game

went dead after their quick fire double. So disappointing after so much promise. 

That was so cruel how didn’t that go in

Can’t believe how frustrating the last half hour has been, we’ve been really poor all over

Never a yellow for Morelos that was ridiculous he just showed frustration

Another blunder from Goldson and the referee has really let him off the hook there. We’ve done nothing since their goal very disappointing. 

Middleton’s corners have been excellent too. A number of positives despite being behind

Excellent wing play, doing the basics right with a clever one-two