bmck

i just looked at an article online. it just shows how biased language that looks for all the world like observation is.

its title is "Policeman tells of lucky escape from Rangers mob". His escape wasn't lucky - one victim of thuggary helped another victim of thuggary to safety. It seems they couldn't bring themself to call the hero of the piece a Rangers fan (he was 'a fan', 'British Army Paramedic' etc) because the power of the piece's premise was based on the actions of an unqualified-for-dramatic-effect "Rangers mob".

Such irresponsible linguistic sleights of hand are unbecoming, to the point of moral bankruptcy, for a paper with the reputation of the guardian's. I thought this all left with Spiersy.its obscene.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/may/16/uefa.rangers

spiers had that written out before he went to manchester, most probably.

every bit of litter represents an investment in manchester's economy. if they cant provide enough bins to cope with investment, its their problem.

no-one likes us. we dont care.

its not people on here venting like this we should be worried about - they retracted their over-reaction earlier. people vent; we are big enough. as more facts are coming out, though, it seems like things are little different than the first reports suggested. now every rent-a-cause reactionary, from petty Spiers to Manchester Council, is going to use this as an excuse to advance their own little causes. none of them are interested in what actually happened as they are too busy thinking about interests, profits, elections, committees. its the biggest load of pish in the world - if everyone was as harmless as the person who came on here, venting, and then apologising for casting the net so wide, and getting on with their sensible lives, then this situation would be a lot better. these are the truly fucked people - who take in thuggary an excuse to push their own shit little agendas. for every tim that leaves smug self-indulgent comments on websites there is one person in real life who is actually the same, but actually have some responsibility. its at times like this we need the RST and David Murray etc to come out fighting. 55 arrests in 125k people is 0.03 odd percent. its terrible that it happened, but there are probably that many arrests in manchester every weekend - do the people who work for the council feel perfectly safe wandering through their roughest parts at the weekend? with all those sweet mancurians who would never do anything like this? this stuff happens - its horrible, but its why we have laws. fuck them all, i am now deciding to say. every decent person will condemn the bad and not ignore the good. anythign else is just propoganda.

agreed. i think last night proved ultimately, as well, that barry ferguson is not the man for that just-off-the-striker role. he hardly passed a ball last night. he is injured, and he's done well for us, but he'd be better sitting in beside thomson and getting an actually creative player in that role.

alright, "juggernaut" is just far too much.

but i reckon if, next season, we kept the exact same formation, and purchased a few genuinly classy attacking players, we would have an almost mathematical model for grinding out results in europe.

the attacking 451 that's more like a 433 for games against opposition we should beat; the defensive 451 for games against opposition who are tough.

if we can have an as well thought out system in attacking mode as we do in defending, we could afford to tip the balance of the system depending on how a single game was going.

i dont think zenit were massively, massively outstanding - they just understood, as a counter attacking and attacking team, that flooding the opposition with runs is how teams are opened up. we havent had that ability, other than on a few occassions, but i think 451 could adapt to it. with a few substitutions the "dont concede a goal" philosophy could be re-adopted to see out games.

I do, was just bit miffed at being called an imposter, and was angry at my physical asault still in my original post.

you've every right to be angry. the only reason people thought you might be an imposter is because of the horrible, horrible habit old firm fans have of celebrating the failings of their opposition and their fans. we've had, on here, over the years, so many people who have faked their identity to enjoy taking cheap digs - that's why people were suspicious, it happens too regularly for people not to consider it. you only need to look at the comments on news websites from celtic supporters who have actively looked for reports of trouble, and used it as a pitiful excuse for a game of oneupmanship when real people's lives were affected.

i know you're from manchester, though. you're not one of those people. the sad thing is that with big crowds people with bad/sly intentions know exactly how to turn things sour. the football hooligan element is canny enough to know that if they look like victims to the people immediately surrounding them and start shouting about "heavy handed policing", some reaction is going to follow. its hard to know about the facts, and it's tempting to generalise. amidst the dissonant sound of everyone who feels righteously idignant (manchester's people for their city looking like a bombsite, the police who shouldn't have to deal with violence, the majority of rangers fans whose reputation has been sullied by people unknown, the rangers fans who poured life and soul and money into the city who are now being made to look like animals, the people in the square who experienced an absolutely shocking technical error, and the people who were disgracefully pelted for trying to solve the shocking technical error) there is some sort of truth, but everyone is to some extent responsible, and they immediately want to deflect the degree of responsibility by saying all the good stuff they've done.

it strikes me now that people are just interested in brands & the media: rfc wants to distance itself from the hooligans, the council wants to deflect criticism about poor organisation, the police wants to protect itself against any accusations that they are responsible, rangers fans want you to look at things in terms of a percentage of trouble. english nationalists want to view it as a striking example of scottish backwardness, and so play up the violence, and others want to highlight how well most of the people got on with each other as an example of how strong the union is. it's all rhetoric as everyone wants to defend their corner - it becomes a propoganda war.

i think, though, when people think about it for a second - badness should be condemned (however/whereever it occurs) and goodness celebrated.

for the badness that was our fault, we only can, and should, say sorry. and we are.

RANGERS Football Club issued the following statement in light of incidents involving supporters in Manchester. Martin Bain, chief executive, said:" The club has had discussions with Greater Manchester Police and Manchester City Council in view of incidents in the city last night. "The police and council praised the behaviour of the overwhelming majority of Rangers fans and estimates suggest there could have been around 200,000 in the city yesterday."There was a tremendous atmosphere all around the city and the vast majority deserved credit for the way they behaved."The police and council have identified the failure of a big screen in the city as a key point in the evening. We are deeply disappointed that a small minority soured what was great carnival atmosphere and this is a view shared by our fans who travelled in unprecedented numbers to Manchester." We would like to thank everyone in Manchester who made such a great effort to welcome our fans to the city yesterday."

there more i'm seeing about all this, the less comfortable i feel. there's nothing the decent people can do about people of these sort - how do you say "we're as frustrated as you" without seeming insincere.

I work for the council responsible for the screens, NOT directly involved in that department, but know it was a technical fault, unavoidable, and easy to fix IF the engineer had been allowed to do so. What do you think, those in charge thought it would be a good idea tojust turn it off?? Behave.

I was born in Newton Heath, Manchester, and have lived in the area all my life, guess I have no way of proving that, or that I am not an imposter. Or a 'Timposter' whatever that may be.

I came on this site as we have had several Gers fans on our City site, before game, asking for hotels, pubs etc, and thought this site would be a good place to let you guys know the feeling about what happened here last night.

If you want to add insult to the injury I sustained last night, then fine, bury your heads in the sand, and think I am not genuine................

Maybe I expected too much by posting. Will leave site then.

everyone here apologised to you and are ashamed about those who ruined it. what more do you want? if you want to demonise a whole travelling crowd because of 0.037% of them (46 arrests, 125k fans) then that's upto you. i bet there's 46 arrests a weekend in Manchester. but you can only get up on your high horse if you hand back everything all the decent fans gave you - either hand all the money and shared reverie back and demonise everyone, or realise that unfortunately some people are just arseholes, and as much as we would like that they didn't exist, they do. we can only apologise on their behalf. we mean it sincerely - every rangers fan i've spoken to is just gutted at the thought of what damage these morons have done. you can come on here at rant at people who are nothing to do with trouble if you want; but if their apologies arent good enough for you, then there's no more we can do.

Was thinking that myself mate

the person's from manchester. not that it matters: him venting here, us sighing there. no-one wanted any of that nonsense, it's bloody awful. but some people will jump onto the happy bandwagon of righteous indignation and celebrate the fact that our reputation has been tarnished by these idiots (that's not to say the original poster is at all - they have a right to be angry). there's no excuse for behaviour like that, and there's no excuse for gloating; everyone, everyone, knows better.

if manchester remembers our trip there with disgust and disdain, that's upto them. at very least we've boosted the city's economy. but it goes without saying no amount of money makes right the actions of a minority, but i think it would take a person from manchester with no insight at all think we're all bad, and for that to be all that they can take from it. manchester has enough trouble makers not to be suprised that they have them elsewhere as well.

well done all the bears who represented us with pride; shame on those who ruined it for all those people. let's condemn badness where its bad, and celebrate goodness where it's good, and all move on from there.

i also think it would be worthwhile waiting until everyone knows exactly what happened before making any rash judgements.

Did you get into Ibrox Barry ?

i didnt m8, i didnt. i will have to enjoy immensity from home; the kind of things that motivate people to go there says i should stay here. we are still in this final! come on!

This is excruciating relying on the Beeb's text stream. Sounds like we're relying on our boys at the back as usual.

Mike, pm me your number and ill text you updates.

but maybe - it looks like the english guys are on stv!

7.30pm Live UEFA Cup Final Zenit St Petersburg v Rangers (Kick-off 7.45pm). Matt Smith is joined by Andy Townsend to presents coverage of the showpiece occasion at the City of Manchester Stadium. Zenit are managed by former Gers boss Dick Advocaat, who worked wonders to inspire his team to victories over German sides Bayer Leverkusen and Bayern Munich en route to this stage. Walter Smith's men do not boast the flair of their opponents and have reached this stage on the foundation of a frugal defence, which kept four clean sheets during the knockout phase. The Glasgow outfit are appearing in their first European final since they won the 1972 Cup Winners' Cup and the omens are in their favour, as it was Russian team Dynamo Moscow who they beat to lift the cup that night. Commentary by Peter Drury, with reports from Ned Boulting. Subsequent programmes subject to change

^ oh shit, no. it's only on for half an hour.

Can anyone tell me if the game is ITV4,when I phoned home from work to get my wife to record the match for me,she said it wasn't on the programme list ?

it is m8-

7.00pm UEFA Cup Final Preview Matt Smith and Andy Townsend look ahead to the final between Zenit St Petersburg and Rangers, staged at the City of Manchester Stadium (888)

from http://www.guardian.co.uk/TV/itv4.html

its great when you have to go back through two excited pages of posts to find the one you want exhume.

it seems daft, but what do you think will happen with smokers at the game tonight? if you have to be there for six, you wont leave till at the very minimum 9:45. do you think since its free they will leave the doors open?

You should change your id to Rubber Bmuck...

 

Or should that be Rawbab Duck...?

 

Best I can can up with...

given that its the night before a european final we appear in, im going to call it an inspired attempt. :rfc:

lucky bastards. i've always wanted to be part of a convoy.

many thanks lads. 6pm, perfect.

for various reasons i'll no be manchester bound. not to worry, but does anyone know whats happening with ibrox? do you need to buy tickets?

Anyway, the worst insult has to be, "Bawbab"...

someone add bawbab to the *** filter.

i think everyone's right - its like ******/tim/hun. they're all the same. whatever they once meant they are just a blanket term for them-bastards-over-there nowadays.

but now that we've got into trouble for it, its horrible double standards if we dont take all theoretically-could-be-horribly-disparaging words out the game.

to be honest i think its just another example of middle class liberals hating the only thing they know how to hate: working class people/attitudes. calling someone a "****** bastard/hun bastard" is so uncouth to them they couldn't imagine it being said is jest. but its said in jest all the time. sometimes its said with anger, but then sometimes saying "shut it ya ginger prick" can be said in anger.

its a power struggle. you read the broadsheets and they think they are clever by writing in the third person and making clever, objective, observations with a fair few flowery words. they dont know how to be passionate because passion is irrational, and unbecoming to them. tabloids play on people's passions in a base way: knowing that passionate people are easy to manage they perpetually wind them up.

in an ideal world, i think, the broadsheets would have football supporters as cricket supporters, and the tabloids would have football supporters as people-getting-fed-to-lions supporters. all the talk about sectarianism is really just a power struggle about what constitutes the best way to be, i think.

i think we should sing what we like. life's too short. i don't think we should complain about other clubs not being held up to the same standards, no matter how tempting. lets just be happy we've tidied up our songs, irrespective of what celtic do, and just not back down on anything we think, for us, is going too far.

I've been carrying my tickets about with me everywhere. Went to bed the other night and realised I had left them downstairs and had to go and take them up to the bedroom.

thats just class.

yes, my "turn up at the train station at the last minute and hope it all works out" plan is starting to look perhaps slightly optimistic

had a lift, it all fell through, but re-arranging stuff so it's possible. i'll know by monday. if so, see you there!