bmck

Erm no, I think those of us with a modicum of sense know just how terrible the SPL is and has been for many seasons.

That's so needlessly contentious. Someone with more than a modicum of a sense would surely realise how utterly stupid it is to respond to a minor point with such disproportionate and self-aggrandising sarcasm.

the thing that makes it worst is the lack of a plan or overarching vision we can place this all in. i think we could get put up with getting humped in the champions league if there was some sort of plan for slow but steady progress. for example, if PLG had been good, and said "i am getting a team balanced with some decent youngsters taught to play good passing football - we will get humped continuously in the champions league for a fair few seasons, but stick with us, we are going somewhere" i think, given the dawning reality of our financial situation, we would be happy with that. its the lack of a helmsman and the sea sickness of a rudderless ship that makes this feel as bad as it does.

I think a little thought can be made that these guy's spending a night with there families will probably be better for them than a Friday training session. Even if they are not super fit that one Friday won't make the difference.

its not about them. it would probably be better for them if they had no rules at all.

Sorry, but these endless threads of misplaced, pointless optimism are getting tiring.

there is no other way to approach a game, i dont think. there are loads of threads lamenting our predicament. you need we-can-do-this-get-behind-the-team sentiment going to a game otherwise you might as well stay at home.

I thought my time on here was pushing it a bit, but my activity level only halfway up. So maybe my job is reasonably safe...

We should rename it the vocational insecurity level

Too busy posting on Gersnet, eh Walter?

Look at his activity level; if any of us had that we'd be sacked from our job.....

... no actually, wait....

This is all a bit like the abortion debate. One side calls themselves pro-life and the other pro-choice; one side calls the other side religious-nutters and the other calls the other baby-killers. People put their own position in terms most favourable to their ends.

Most people on here who don't trust the RST are pretty sensible and not uncharitable. And the lack of trust is not because of misinformation and spin, it's just our best analysis of their behaviour, which is publicly available for us to see. Most of us who feel this way are RST members, and had been staunch supporters from the beginning (something likewise proven true by a look back through our articles). Given the fall in our estimation of the RST, and the recent 'stewardship' of Murray, we have come to place a high stock on being able to trust our leaders. This period of relative crisis isn't going to go well without prinicipled leaders. We're the pro-strong-leaders lobby.

Step over to UCB, and he sees above all things the need for unity. This period of relative crisis isn't going to go at all unless we can bury past feelings and move forward; the only people aiming for the bigger goal of fan ownership, which, being philosophical RST supporters, we all want, is the RST. This isn't about the RST increasing in power, and those at it's lead - it's about getting together as Rangers fans and doing what is right for the club. The pro-unity lobby value action over inaction, and the higher ideals over personal squabbles.

The crux of the issue is this. The problem with progressing under abstract banners like 'the club', or 'the good of Rangers' is precisely that it's only abstract. In practical terms you are always united under something, or, more pertinently, someone. Doing things for the good of Rangers then implicitly implies doing things for the good of the RST . I know that for every bit of my weight I throw behind this, if it all works out, I am contributing to the people sitting at the top of the tree post-fan-ownership-revolution being the same people who essentially took over the RST by force and who have taken every opportunity to haughtily isolate themselves from those who disagree with anything they say.

So, the question isn't unity; unity for unity's sake is Animal Farm. Like most people, when push comes to shove and it's a do-nothing or do-something situation, I'll probably do what I can to contribute to the best thing that appears. I think it was Tannochsidebear who said that, as he understood it, any step towards fan ownership would be a step toward the disollution of the RST. This isn't a strange idea, given that this is the RST's most defining issue. If this was somehow worked into an investment scheme - as a sort of show of faith that the RST think the issue is more important than themselves - I'd be more likely to invest.

It's a tough one, and I think people are genuinly torn. My intuitions about the RST take on maineflyrean (a new one for the OED maybe) levels of cyncism, but I don't want to miss a once in a lifetime opportunity to do something rather than nothing. Everyone's nearer one end or the other of these two poles, I think. All UCB's rhetoric pushes us towards one end of the pole, and everything people like me see argues towards the other end. What we need is this dilemma to disappear.

The only ways I can see it happening is that if either someone who isn't the Trust put it forward (removing trust issues about the trust), like the club or the bank. Or if the Trust somehow linked investment in their scheme to their functional end as an organisation.

Anyway, enough rambling. My (extended) tuppence.

i mind tannadice went minorly on fire when i was there. disconcerting to see firemen with an axe and bag of sand on hand, as though it were a regular occurence. boycott.

andrew said it; there is no link between UEFA hypocrisy on racism and leniency on our punishment. the only link is pathological hatred of rangers.

First post so bear with me, I was told by a mate who was at the meeting that there was a small turnout of about 150-170, is this a barometer for the future and the apathy it appears that exists about our present situation.

I think it's a measure of a few things. There's probably that, but there's also concerns about the RST. I do think that once you get to a situation where someone says "We need you to sign up �£X per month for Y months to save the club" you'll get more than a couple of hundred people, though.

The hypocrisy of some sites is breathtaking, my brother who posted as boydscores has been banned by Rangersmedia, apparently he understands the Rangers accounts only to well, he should for reasons that will become obvious at a date in the future. If you don't agree with the party line it appears that over at Rangersmedia, appears the little general plays the timm card and you are gone, how about that frankie.

Frankie wont be back for a few days. Tomorrow even, maybe. I dunno. I've only been to RM once, but I liked it.

Anyway, there is no party line here, but we do ask that you stay on topic and not spend too much time slagging off other sites. Let's keep this for discussion of the RST event.

for me it's because something like seven RST board members left as a matter of conscience after what was essentially a coup d'etat by the current people. from what i remember they held secret meetings to oust the existing chairman and take over the RST. they refused to answer questions on why people and left, and decided to 'protect' the members from all the facts regarding it.

you've got to trust your leaders; i like UCB, but i honestly don't trust the rest of them. i'd love to. we need unity now. but you can't seperate rhetoric from the mouth it comes out of. nothing to me suggests they have the kind of mentality to lead.

And I thought Bluedell writing about money could sent me to sle

you find it interesting when it suits you m8

<contemplates essay on Athenian political structure and influence held by generals, and wonders whether to read Thucydides or just ask BmcK and Cotter>

relate it to the current and future ongoings at ibrox and its another article for the site man

Ancient Greek? WTF? :fish:

the tangents we get onto...

You told me "how it works mate". I felt patronised. I apologise. I wasn't "deconstructing"; your little chat simply piqued my interest. I'm sure you read ancient Greek perfectly. I apologise again.

no need to apologise at all, man. its just a bit of fun. you seemed to be saying we were just parroting what we had read, but thats just how it works. even with rangers - you just hear what everyones got to say then make up your mind. i just fling mate and man in wherever i can. ps i read ancient greek ok, whenever i speak it it comes out a bit glaswegian though

You've held the ancient sources in your hands and speak perfect ancient Greek of course. No patronising please, I am the proud owner of a 1st class History degree and am aware how it "works" thankyou.

who was patronising? you were the one deconstructing our wee chat and boasting about your degree. and i read ancient greek pretty well thanks

You chaps seem to be arguing with authority on accounts of ancient Greece depending on which books you've read/lecturers you've listened to.....

and the ancient sources. thats how it work m8

Thanks for that. However, ancient Greece was not the democracy it's often painted - it was supported by millions of slaves.

that not really true! though i think thats an argument for another thread. whatever the case we fans dont want to be left with a slaves rights in whatever comes next no matter how much recent attention on slavery in athens in exaggerated.

you know you've got no chance when it's the managers in the 'yes' camp and the chairmen in the 'no'.

this is like the dream scenario. some guy to clear the debt and let us own the club debt cleared. if this turns out to be the case, however unlikely, we should stick up a statue of johnny as the herald of the best news ever.

(resists Marxist propaganda opportunity),

if only there were a thank you function for specific part of a post

i honestly think the press are just a bit smarter than ally, its all part of his apprenticeship. i let the mrs read tannochside_bears account earlier tonight (i should never have got the intenet in the house, i will never finish this essay) and she said "if they are going to start spraying stuff at people its them who have to live with the consequences - people who get sprayed with tear gas for no good reason retaliate". few people are going to sit and take that, regardless of the consequences, even if they are far from hard. but i think the main point of the piece that calling for allys resignation is just silly is right. if he had said "if i were in the crowd i would have done something similar" he would have pleased the support for two seconds and dragged this chirade of a witch hunt out even longer. uefa will do what they do, and we will do what we do, and on it goes. this has never happened at ibrox where we evil hordes congregate in the biggest numbers - whats the difference? the polis here arent stupid enough to use pre-civilisation crowd control methods. nonetheless, the tearing up of seats and that cant go unpunished, regardless of the rights or wrongs or justifications because thats how life is. the moral posturings of the morally bankrupt media aside - its like at school, you punch someone in the face, you will get into trouble regardless of the provocation because the rules are the rules, but you dont feel bad about it or lose any sleep. ally, because of his job, is one the teachers side now, and sometimes it involves stuff like this. he should have said no comment probably, but thats it.

Maybe.

i dont think its that ambiguous. while clearly there is no law that says you have got to get worse before you get better, if the way forward involves less money for players and wages in the short term, its hard to imagine how it will get better in small increments. i think that is the biggest hurdle proponents of pure fan ownership have to face. on the other side of things, its hard to know what is better is four or five steps after the fact. pure fan ownership may still, if it werent for the debt, allow us to invest more in the team than the rest of the spl, and encourage us to adopt a rangers way of producing and playing players. in a real sense what is happening to us now me be a prototype of what will ultimately happen across the board, and what seems like a step back may be a step forward. i dunno. all speculation at this stage. you are right though - not every situation demands getting worse before getting better, but i cant see how fan ownership will be able to cough up the money to clear the debt as well as finance improvement on the park. hell, im not sure if big money guys can do that. one thing is clear - you only get this chance for innovation once every few generations and its fallen to ours. lets hope we dont make an arses of it.

I don't understand the "getting worse to get better" argument that follows a lot of bad ideas such as the PLG tenure for example.

I think the crux is that the only to keep improving is to have millionaire input, which ultimately precludes fan ownership. Fan ownership would mean lack of money for wages/players which would make us regress until the finances were sorted.