CammyF

So the Spanish Police attacked us due to songs - how did they know that the songs we were singing were 'offensive'? What about the Rangers fans attacked by the police OUTSIDE the ground prior to kick off? Were the police justified in attacking them as the had reason to believe that some of them, at a later date may sing sectarian songs? There is no defence for the police attacks Cammy F

I am not defending the effteepee chants, but who, currently working for Osasuna knew what song to play and when exactly to turn the music down to hear us sing the 'offensive' words? Yes we have to learn to box clever (or get ourt house in order) but we need leadership, we need defending against over the top complaints, we need equality from UEFA - we are currently getting none of the above. Cammy F

Agree with almost everything you say - BUT us breaking the law isn't the issue - the main issue is why are we, Rangers, the only club currently being punished using this 'law' - we certainly aren't the only ones breaking it, so why are we getting and only us getting punished? The answer IMO, we are the only club in Europe who's OWN press have led a campaign that has left UEFA with no choice but to charge us for breaking the law. So the question we have to ask is why are the media so against us? Well, for this Bear it is obvious - some of us still can't see it and call the rest of us paranoid. Cammy F

But we can't get our own house in order until someone defines what is sectarian, political or offensive. That can not be defined, as it is now, by a set of fans, media whores and poltical wankers who are offended by ANYTHING and EVERYTHING we do, say or stand for. Cammy F

No one is denying that we broke 'the law', but the law and those that impose the law aren't being even-handed nor fair. They are reacting to complaints from a politically driven anti-Rangers agenda led by the media, politicians and the biggest bunch of bigots in this country, the Craptic support. That is the issue - not whether we broke 'the law' or not. Cammy F

But is THIS word, the only word that is considered 'offensive'? Why isn't HUN or Orange Bastard on the same agenda? I think it is more about who is actuyally being 'offended' rather than the word, or the origin of the word. In fact, the MOPES have gone into overdrive and are claiming the word TIM is now offensive. Yip, that is a word that they use to describe themselves. I wonder if the MOPES will rampage thro the Gallowgate smashing up all the TIM related pubs, clubs and shops with TIM in their names? This is more clear cut, it is indefensible No there are not and they should be 'given up', but they shouldn't be the only things highlighted and reacted on by a clearly one-sided and biased media and political base here in Scotland Cammy F

Exactly - can we, or UEFA say that Rangers fans are the only fans in Europe who sing 'offensive' songs in UEFA Cup or CL games? Are we to believe that NO OTHER CLUB IN EUROPE don't sing racist, sectarian or political songs? Are we the only fans breaking the rules? Sorry, but I for one ain't believing that. We aren't the only fans in GLASGOW who sing racist, sectarian or political songs FFS. Until the club grow a back-bone we are going to get fooked out of Europe and lose points in the SPL. The one-sided nature of this is laughable, well it would be if it wasn't so serious. Cammy F

Craig, Rangers FC sent information to UEFA regarding the miss-treatment of fans after various trips over the last 2-3 season and NOTHING has been done about it. No matter how many eye-witness reports we send to Rangers and UEFA NOTHING will be done about it. UEFA are too concerned with silly wee songs to be worried about the safety of travelling fans, especially when they are visiting a 'big nation' like Spain (or Italy). In Italy recently, we have had match fixing and deaths of police and fans. What has UEFA done in response to this? What sactions were dished out to Spain after their fans were guilty (and still are) or racist chanting? Are Spain likely to be thrown out of UEFA comps and / or the World Cup? What Rangers need to ask UEFA publically is if the lives of fans is more important than a 'silly wee song'. UEFA will, as always deem the singing more of an issue - to me that says more than I can about the reptiles that run this 'peoples game'. Cammy F

Gone but NEVER forgotten - RIP Davie http://www.rangers.premiumtv.co.uk/page/HallOfFame/0,,5~529635,00.html Davie, Oh Davie Cooper, Oh Davie Cooper On The Wing. Cammy F

Playing Devils Advocate here, but is singing 'up to our knees in fe*** blood' any more offensive than the lines used by say Dundee (arabs blood), Killie (Ayr blood), Ayr (Killie blood), Hearts (Hibee blood) etc? The debate surrounding 'fe***' is clouded - I have no doubt that many 'well informed' Rangers fans would be able to correctly describe what a fe*** is, but and this is crucial in the whole argument, there is no denying that it is now a derogatroy reference for 'Craptic Fan'. But again, the examples above and the widely used offensive term HUN shows that this whole debate is very one-sided. Cammy F

But here is the issue, NO ONE has said what is 'sectarian' and given the MOPES, they are offended by our very existance - so how, in reality can we move forward when we have people saying that things as inoffensive as the bam-busters and the bouncy are 'sectarian'? In this shity little country, it is now deemed 'sectarian' and 'offensive' to fly the UNION FLAG - the MOPES have seen to that. They will not give up beeing offended until Rangers are out of business - its as simple as that. Given that, it is easy to easy why certain Rangers fans have taken a siege mentality. They are (rightly or wrongly) concerned that no matter what Rangers do, it won't be enough to silence the MOPES and their more than willing political and media lackies. That is why Rangers have to be pro-active and tell us what is and what isn't 'sectarian' - draw a line in the sand and stand up to the bigots who want us shut down. As for a self-imposed ban? This is the biggest OWN GOAL from Rangers and covers up the real problems from Osasuna (and other trips) where ordinary, working class, law-abiding Rangers fans lives were put at risk by European Clubs, slack UEFA Guidlines and an unept Rangers travel department. Cammy F

Slighty off topic, but was speaking with a guy I know who is friendly with a member of the Spanish press in Pamplona. When they were discussing the Scottish Medias reporting the Spanish guy couldn't believe the over-hype that it was given. He basically said that the Rangers fans were great, loud, but dencent and that the Spanish Police has a history of wading in to travelling supports. Anyway, he also said that there was a worse incident at the weekend when Osasuna played Athletico Bilboa (sp) - the Athletico fans attacked the Osasuna team bus and tried to over-turn it, smashing windows etc. Cammy F

Direct your Jambo friend to these artciles; http://heritage.scotsman.com/places.cfm?id=1628882006 http://www.laurahird.com/newreview/mccraesbattalion.html http://heritage.scotsman.com/people.cfm?id=933832006 http://www.geocities.com/athens/pantheon/3828/ Cammy F

As your Jambo friend how offensive the UF is to those brave Jambo's (players and fans) who fought and died for this country and who are remembered every year at Haymarket? Cammy F

Intersteing points mike... Regarding highlighting over clubs with problems, this is essential to show that both UEFA and the press aren't being even-handed. We would have to ensure that we didn't 'gloss over' our issue - we have to admit them but show evidence that we aren't the worst offenders. The examples I have given above were only confined to the UK. We could show examples of Lazio fans singing racist and right wing songs. I am sure that there are many other examples we could use. As for the press, again we have to fight sensationalist headlines as if we don't they will continue. But given the great responses on here, it shows what a huge job the club has, and I honestly don't think they are up for it. Thank The Lord for the RST. Cammy F

Another positive for me is seeing Shota back on Scottish soil. Pity the game isn't at Ibrox (as Shota indicated) as it would be great to seem him back home. Cammy F

Again, here is where we need the club to take the lead in this. As some have said, this tune is sang at most grounds in Britain (and is it less offensive to be up to your knees in 'Ayr' blood than f*****?). If we get our act together, there should be nothing to stop us from singing a non-offensive version of this 'tune'. However, how long would it be before some fans reverted back to the 'offensive' version? Hello Hello We Are The Rangers Boys Hello Hello You'll Know Us By Our Noise We'll Follow Glasgow Rangers, Our Hearts Both Strong and True For We Are The People Who Cheer The Boys In Blue Cammy F

The main reason for my thinking regarding drawing a line in the sand, is that if we don't do it, the media will, once we have eradicated effteepee etc, go after things like the union flag and GSTQ/RB. Once the media and the MOPES get a hold of it, UEFA will come trotting behind them and demm these as 'offensive'. Thats why we have to draw a line - and IMO the line has to be drawn after effteepee and 'fe****'. However, that is not to say that we as a support have a debate after this about things like GSTQ/RB etc. As for Flower Of Scotland, I absolutely hate that dirge of a song - that is not a political statement, just one of a music fan with taste .... In saying that, my Follow Follow record from the early 60's has FOS and Scotland the Brave along side Derrys Walls, The Sash, Follow Follow etc. Would I give abuse to anyone at Ibrox singing FOS or wearing a Scotland top? Deffo not, why would I? In the same light, I wouldn't abuse any fan at Ibrox wearing an England, Wales, NI, Holland, Spain, Croatia, Brazil, Argentine, etc, etc top either. What we really must be careful of here is trying to run before we can walk. We have to do this in stages and as Frankie says by education and not 'over the top condemnation'. As for the BNP sellers, they are doing nothing illeagal and have the right to sell their papers anywhere in they want. Rangers have pushed them as far away from the stadium as they are permitted to do under council legislation. Like them or loathe them, under the freedom of speach they are entitled to their opinion and to express this in public. Cammy F

Well done (again) to the RST - when it comes to defending Rangers and the fans, it's the only show in town. The club could do worse than employing the RST as a vehilce in tackling the press along with PR. Cammy F

With the newest alleged UEFA investigation into the ââ?¬Ë?Simply The Bestââ?¬â?¢ song in Osasuna, Rangers have to wage war on two fronts if they have any hope of coming out of this ââ?¬Ë?warââ?¬â?¢ unscathed. Dignified Silence Is No Longer An Option SDM needs to realise that a ââ?¬Ë?dignified silenceââ?¬â?¢ in the face of sensationalist headlines is no longer an option. The club has to come out fighting here. We are not looking for UEFA to ignore any discriminatory songs, we are asking for a level playing field. It is time for the club to take of the kid gloves and hit back here. It sounds petty, but we have to highlight other clubs fans who sing discriminatory songs and prove that we arenââ?¬â?¢t the only club in Europe who have an issue. Hell, we arenââ?¬â?¢t even the only club in Glasgow who has an issue. There is plenty of evidence out there to prove this. A quick search of You Tube will bring up videos of Celtic fans singing IRA, sectarian and other vile songs, itââ?¬â?¢ll bring up videos of West Ham fans singing anti-Jewish and racist songs, itââ?¬â?¢ll show evidence of Aberdeen fans singing discriminatory songs, hell, you can even see the TA singing anti-English racist songs. Celtic fans are getting worried as they have tried their best to get the ââ?¬Ë?press bus incidentââ?¬â?¢ in Milan rubbished and certain sections of the media have as usual been very obliging in ââ?¬Ë?coveringââ?¬â?¢ this up. As well as showing UEFA that we arenââ?¬â?¢t the only club with an issue, we have to highlight this to the Scottish press. This may turn out to be harder than convincing UEFA. Rangers, as a club must invite the editors of the newspapers to Ibrox and show them ââ?¬Ë?You Tube Videosââ?¬â?¢ of other Scottish clubs indulging in discriminatory songs and if they do not splash this all over their front pages, the club must take them to task over this. As with UEFA, we are not asking for preferential treatment, just parity. In our quest for parity both here in Scotland in Europe, it is my belief that Rangers could do worse than enlisting the services of Donald Findlay QC. Ok, SDM treated DF like shit and hung him out to dry, but in our hour of need, DF wouldnââ?¬â?¢t let us down. He is the best in the country and we need the best at the moment. Fââ?¬â?¢ing The Pope Id No Longer An Option The club, hopefully with the help of the RST need to lead an initiative informing Rangers fans that fââ?¬â?¢ing the pope and using F***** as a discriminatory term is going to KILL the club we love. It is my view that once we eradicate effteepee and ââ?¬Ë?f*****ââ?¬â?¢, we are, (like Neil Lennon) untouchable. This is where we need leadership, direction and clarity from the club. No one appears to want to define what is deemed ââ?¬Ë?sectarianââ?¬â?¢, so lets pre-empty the discussion and lay down the ââ?¬Ë?lawââ?¬â?¢. Letââ?¬â?¢s lead from the front, and admit that singing fââ?¬â?¢ the pope is sectarian as is using fe**** as a discriminatory term (this is a grey area, but bare with me). If we are first to announce such things, it puts pressure on others to follow suit. We can then draw a line in the sand and say, ââ?¬Ë?we have defined what terms/songs our fans sing that are discriminatory songs. These will be stopped, BUT nothing else is up for debate. Union flags, GSTQ, RB, Derrys Walls, The Sash et al, whilst not being football songs, THEY ARE NOT SECTARIAN NOR ARE THEY DISCRIMINATORY. Failure to take action on both fronts isnââ?¬â?¢t an option either, if we fail to do this, Rangers will continued be hammered from pillar to post by a Celtic Minded Scottish media (and political base) and UEFA not to mention the MOPES (most offended people ever, yip, the tims). A quick and decisive attack on both fronts will highlight the ââ?¬Ë?one-sidedââ?¬â?¢ sensationalist journalism in this country and will force UEFA to open up a whole can of worms regarding a European wide crack down on discriminatory songs. Cammy F

There is no doubt that Hutton is improving, but what he requires is to find this level (or better) or performance on a regular basis. Hutton has always shown that he is a decent prospect / player, but does appear to go thro phases when he looks like a little boy lost. Cammy F

Flaunting their banner yesterday (The one commissioned by the nonces in Peterhead prison i may add) with Che Guevara on it at the Bears..... Then trying to taunt us with ''Sign on..''''In your Glasgow slums''.... Che would have been so proud of such elitism... Cammy F

OMG, could we really stand another - the helicopter is changing direction - Sunday afternoon Cammy F

No, the best I can come up with is that those 'presbyterians' singing about f-ing the poipe, being up to their knees in 'anyones blood' aren't displaying the values associated with Presbyterianism. I think too many of our fans mistake LOYALISM for Presbyterianism and Unionism. I have nothing against all 3, but they aren't the same and have many different values and supporters. Rangers are a football team / club / instituation that was founded on purely sporting grounds and has grown into one of the biggest footballing clubs in the world. Rangers fans come from all walks of life - socialists, conservatives, liberals, protestants, unionist, Scottish 'republicans', catholics, jews but probably mostly from the none of the above...... This 'hand-ringing, pinko-liberal' Rangers fan dreams for the day that the Rangers fans sing Rangers songs for 90 minutes celebrating the historic successes of the team, players, managers etc. Cammy F

Also Loyal & Blue, what sort of Presbyterian values condones shouting F*** The Pope and such like? As Pete says, irony of irony, such behaviour is very anti-Presbyterian like and not what I'd expect for someone from Presbyterian stock........ Cammy F